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Diversity of Everything but Thought

 
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Dec, 2004 01:01 pm
Just anecdotal here but in my own univ experience I had a gaggle of liberal profs in social science courses, a plethora of conservatives in my economics and science courses and a very interesting retired prof from the US Air Force Academy teaching my Asian Lit courses. I learned from many of them regardless of their political bias.
BTW Fox, I believe this is the first time for me to be "100% wrong" I have usually only made it to the 60 or 70% wrong status but I am almost positive you are 100% right.
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FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Dec, 2004 01:03 pm
McGentrix wrote:
Mr. Adams ansers all those questions and more in subsequent articles. You should read through them as they are quite eye-opening.


I read the follow up, McG. Even if this guy is a complete dick, the original complaint about his argument assignment http://www.csulb.edu/~csnider/argument.html doesn't seem to stand unless he has since changed it. In fact, I would think that this would be the sort of class that foxfyre thinks us liberals need to take.

Look I had my fair share of dickhead professors too. I'm not saying they aren't there. I'm saying kids have to suck it up until they get into their major. I had to sit through a western civilizations class in which the professor felt it was his sole duty to explain how Jesus could not have existed. I had to take differential equations with a guy that wrote his own book (which was rittled with errors) and who only ever offered it at 7:00 in the morning ( I worked nights at the time) -- and he hated women and felt they were inferior mathematicians. There were others. So what. Are conservative students not learning how to write an argument? Are they failing out of college at record rates? Are they turning into liberals? What exactly is the end result?
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Dec, 2004 01:04 pm
Apologies Dys. I should have qualified my comment that you were almost 100% wrong.
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FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Dec, 2004 01:05 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
I'm still waiting, however, for any data from anybody to counter that the rather limited evidence presented here is not on target.


I think the challenge is not with the data but with the conclusions.
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Dec, 2004 01:12 pm
Perhaps, but the data presented so far does so far support the conclusions that there is a problem. I personally would like to know if there is any evidence, other than incidental anecdotal evidence, to make another conclusion logical.
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revel
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Dec, 2004 01:12 pm
FreeDuck wrote:
I would just like to sum up my thoughts on this whole thing. I believe you when you say, and others report, that more Democrats are college professors than Republicans are. I even believe that some of those professors teach their ideology in the classroom. But there are so many colleges, so many professors, and so many subjects offered that I just don't see that this is a big enough problem to warrant action (other than individual action) -- especially not the kind that is suggested in the article you posted earlier. The problem with your man's argument and with many of your own arguments is that he states one fact (ratio of Republicans to Democrats working in universities) and then proceeds to extrapolate this to mean that universities are flooded with liberal idealism. Needless to say, it's not exactly evident.

As for anecdotal evidence, every single one of these stories about this teacher saying he doesn't like republicans or that student getting an F on his paper is anecdotal evidence. And the whole case for there being a great infection of liberal idealism on college campuses is built on this evidence.

I think that if a young Democrat or Republican has his/her ideas challenged in college that is generally a good thing as there are very few 18-22 year olds who have well thought out political positions in the first place and they might as well explore why they think what they think. That's if they actually have any political persuasion at all. Tough nuts if it isn't done in a sweet and kind and respectful way. College is not a picnic.

And all due respect, fox, your whole point is one to illustrate victimization.

This statement:
Quote:
And if the data is correct--and there is an awful lot of it out there that suggests it most likely is--then the liberal ideology is prevalent on college campuses and conservative students may be disadvantaged or especially challenged as a result of it.
kind of shows that.


This post should leave a person with nothing left to say on the whole overblown subject. But it don't.

No offense foxfrye, but sometimes you make a person want to bang their head on their computer desk.
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Dec, 2004 01:14 pm
Well Revel, either read more carefully or get a nice satin pillow at Sears to put on your desk so you don't hurt yourself.
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FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Dec, 2004 01:16 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
Perhaps, but the data presented so far does so far support the conclusions that there is a problem. I personally would like to know if there is any evidence, other than incidental anecdotal evidence, to make another conclusion logical.


How about answer E: not enough evidence to form a conclusion.
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ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Dec, 2004 01:23 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
In his comments on budgets and funding, the man is a college professor and department head with a PhD in economics and I would say that is sufficient credentials for him to be his own expert in that field.


Of course he can be his own expert, just as you can be your own expert, Foxfyre. Doesn't mean either of you is anyone else's expert. <shrug>
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Dec, 2004 01:24 pm
Right now answer E may be the right one FreeDuck. But without any evidence to the contrary, I think any logical person would have to consider the probability of a problem.
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ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Dec, 2004 01:25 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
And if the data is correct--and there is an awful lot of it out there that suggests it most likely is--then the liberal ideology is prevalent on college campuses and conservative students may be disadvantaged or especially challenged as a result of it.


Are we to follow your reasoning, and determine that as conservative students are disadvantaged or especially challenged, that only liberal grads should be hired - as they've obviously had a better academic experience?

I don't think so.
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dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Dec, 2004 01:27 pm
ehBeth wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
In his comments on budgets and funding, the man is a college professor and department head with a PhD in economics and I would say that is sufficient credentials for him to be his own expert in that field.


Of course he can be his own expert, just as you can be your own expert, Foxfyre. Doesn't mean either of you is anyone else's expert. <shrug>

He was most likely educated by a Liberal to boot. And that's whats wrong with having liberals in the education process!
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Dec, 2004 01:28 pm
Hmmm. No I don't draw that conclusion at all ehBeth.
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FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Dec, 2004 01:31 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
Right now answer E may be the right one FreeDuck. But without any evidence to the contrary, I think any logical person would have to consider the probability of a problem.


So, until a swarm of conservative students comes forward and says they never encountered a left-of-center professor we can expect more of these arguments.

Maybe we could collect all of the complaints that have been made against liberal professors in the entire country over the last 10 years, and then compare that number to the number of complaints that were not made. Do you see the problem with what you're asking?

How about this. Why don't you state, once for all to hear, exactly what the problem is that is exposed by these studies and stories. I've been asking for this for several posts but I'm not afraid to ask again. What, exactly, is the disadvantage to conservative students? Are they being turned into liberals? Are they prevented from graduating? Are they psychologically damaged? Are they not learning what they need to learn in college -- and if so, is this because the colleges are too liberal or just because they suck?
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Dec, 2004 01:37 pm
Can anyone find any information regarding the fact that many people are complaining about the excessive number of conservative professors teaching in colleges these days?
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Dec, 2004 01:40 pm
I see the problem in that if only the liberal point of view is presented, then some serious stuff is being left out of the curriculum. This would be stuff that would be necessary in order to draw a reasoned opinion based on all available data. To me public education is not for the purpose of indoctrination but for the purpose of education, and one critical component of education is to encourage critical thinking. And despite what any of you think of me, I would be just as concerned if only the conservative point of view was being taught in public school including the universities. (Your best defense against the enemy is to know him. Smile)

I would object to any public school student being marked down or ridiculed or ostracized or otherwise punished because s/he drew a subjective conclusion that differed from his/her professor.
The student should be able to demonstrate that he/she knows the material and it is right and proper for the school to judge him/her on that basis. The school should not have the right or ability to dictate what the student must think.

And that, my friend, is my concern with all this.
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FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Dec, 2004 01:41 pm
That would be a really relevant post, McG, if anyone was arguing that.
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mesquite
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Dec, 2004 01:46 pm
For conservatives that don't like all those liberal professors, they can be guaranteed to not find any at Patrick Henry College.
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Dec, 2004 01:49 pm
Freeduck writes
Quote:
That would be a really relevant post, McG, if anyone was arguing that.


But I have been argueing that all day. The problem isn't a mandate of conservatism; it seems to be the mandate of liberalism. So its a valid question. If there are a reasonable number of public-financed universities that tilt right so that students have a choice, it would be less of a problem. I personally don't want public universities tilting at all however.
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FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Dec, 2004 01:51 pm
I hear your concern, and this is as near as I can come to narrowing what the problem is considered to be.

Foxfyre wrote:
I see the problem in that if only the liberal point of view is presented, then some serious stuff is being left out of the curriculum. This would be stuff that would be necessary in order to draw a reasoned opinion based on all available data. To me public education is not for the purpose of indoctrination but for the purpose of education, and one critical component of education is to encourage critical thinking.


What I want to know is does the evidence you present show that students are in fact graduating without having learned what they need to succeed and if so is this due to the fact that more of their professors were Democrats than were Republicans. Are they graduating without critical thinking skills and if so is that because of the beforementioned inequality.
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