Diversity of Everything but Thought

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Okay, let's see you make the argument that college professors are more intelligent overall than is the population at large? I've been to college. And I know a lot of college professors. I have no perception that they have any better handle than anybody else on anything other than sometimes their own particular academnic discipline, and many are so far out of the mainstream, their view of the real world can be very unrealistic.

Once again, I find this opinion of yours unsurprising. But I think you'd have a very hard time making the argument that modern college proffessors are not, for the most part, very intelligent people.

The problem is that you don't want to admit that such a huge body of intelligent people holds such a drastically different opinion of the way our country should be ran than you do, and it's understandable; it is a difficult argument for you to support on many levels.

But, that's okay; I really don't have any interest in continuing this discussion, because I've remembered a pertinent fact about the Republican party and Conservatives in general: they like to think of themselves of the victim in every situation, no matter how good the party is doing nationally, and reality has absolutely nothing to do with the equation. So what's the point?

Cycloptichorn

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Just once Cyclop, just once I would like to see you actually think about and argue your point of view on its own merits without referencing, much less insulting your debate opponent and/or his point of view. That is a hard thing for any liberal to do, but it is doable. The best way I know to be able to trust in one's convictions is to actually sit down and right a reasoned an brutally honest defense for it.

Once we do that, there is still diversity of thought because there is room for ideology even in truth. But we would have a lot less enmity and angst in the world, if everybody could believe in their own convictions based on supportable evidence, and weren't simply against everybody else's.

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I guess it depends on how you gauge intelligence. There is no doubt that a professor is intelligent in their field of expertise, but that hardly qualifies them to speak in other fields.

For example; I majored in Biology in College and one of my favorite professors was this little chinese guy. I had him for 3 different classes and he and I would argue about a lot of things Biological. However, ask him a question outside his field and he would just brush it off and act like a dumb chinese guy (an act of course.). He didn't care about other stuff. He did not study history ("Leave history to historians!" he'd say).

Now, I would not consider this guy dumb in any sort of way, but he was specialized. Like most professors.

Now, Cyc, everyone knows that the liberals are the crybabies and republicans are the bullys! Dem's have taken victimhood to hieghts never imagined!

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Foxfyre wrote:

Just once Cyclop, just once I would like to see you actually think about and argue your point of view on its own merits without referencing, much less insulting your debate opponent and/or his point of view. That is a hard thing for any liberal to do, but it is doable.

I almost peed my pants laughing when I read this. A hard thing for any liberal to do? Oh come on. And all conservatives hold the beliefs they have because they have thoroughly studied all reasonable positions on an issue and came up with the one they have?

Most people do not spend much time challenging their beliefs with reason. One example would be the belief that liberals are unable to argue a point on its own merits without insulting their opponent. All you have to do is peruse A2K to dispel this belief.

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Yeah, McG, but the Republicans are beating the Dems at their own game these days. It's one of the reasons Bush won the re-election.

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Just once Cyclop, just once I would like to see you actually think about and argue your point of view on its own merits without referencing, much less insulting your debate opponent and/or his point of view. That is a hard thing for any liberal to do, but it is doable. The best way I know to be able to trust in one's convictions is to actually sit down and right a reasoned an brutally honest defense for it.

Matt 7:3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

Matt 7:4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam [is] in thine own eye?

Matt 7:5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

I think you will see me make said arguments plenty of times when discussing things with others on here, if you only look, Fox... as to why it seems to come up with you, you have to look no farther than the question Lola wrote earlier in the thread:

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How is it the rest of you guys here let Foxfyre get away with such shallow idiocies?

Cycloptichorn

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Just read the article posted about students experiencing bias. If the examples in the article are representative of the types of complaints our young conervative students are making, I say grow up. College is where you go to learn not to be proven right. You have a teacher for a reason. If you think you know better than they do, then you don't need college.

But aside from that, aren't conservatives bothered that Horowitz is tyring to use FEDERAL LEGISLATION to ensure universities and colleges are 'unbiased'? Whatever happened to smaller government?

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"smaller government" is a topic republicans don't really want to talk about seeing as how their demi-gods (Reagan and Bush Jr) have provided the largest growth in "government" since FDR.

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I try not to express an opinion I cannot defend. I also don't consider insulting the other person and/or his opinion any form of defense of my opinion. I have a strong adversion to debate via insult.

And I'll change my opinion about it being difficult for liberals being able to defend their point of view without insulting somebody else and/or somebody else's opinion when more of them can do that. There are two or three here on A2K who actually can do that and I know a few others in real life and on other boards who also can do that, so I don't make it a blanket observation. The ones who can do that seem to be pretty rare however.

And yes I think some conservatives are just as guilty with the insults and innuendo when they can't defend their point of view either.

I do think most conservatives are conservative generally because they do know why they know what they know and why they believe what they believe. And I think most can actually write it down.

Ask a typical liberal to explain his/her point of view, and he is much more likely to use platitudes of "equal guilt" or "you're worse" or "oh yeah, like you don't do it too", etc. and then launch into the evils of the conservative or conservatism but rarely ever actually defends his/her own point of view.

Now then, if my analysis here is essentially accurate, and your average liberal college professor views conservatives and conservatism as most liberals seem to view conservatives and conservatism, I can see how a conservative minded student could have a rough time with that professor.

And as an aside, I think most people who achieve PhDs are probably of above-average intelligence. But then so are people who complete law school or medical school or solve complicated crimes or analyze detailed records or run successfuil businesses.

And finally, to Freeduck's question. If it is the federal government's business to be involved in education at all, should that not also apply to higher education as well? I personally wish the federal government would get out of all public education.

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My wife's English teacher comes into class the day after the election and starts screaming about how people could be idiots and vote for Bush, my wife raises her hand and states that she voted for Bush. The teacher proceeds to start yelling at my wife, my wife being an out spoken woman yells back at the teacher telling her that she should be teaching not yelling at students for the way they voted. This lasted for several minutes and by the end of class the teacher was apologizing to my wife. The teacher in an English class constantly put down religion and supplied anti religious material for them to read. My wife even had to go and speak with the head of the English dept. and let her know what was going on. I would say this is the perfect example of liberalism in the classroom.

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A popular evangelical fundamentalist conservative religious leader I once knew used to bemoan the fact that "all the good ones leave the fold when they go East to the university." His solution was to keep them away from universities that encourage academic freedom. Keep them in "Christian" colleges so they can't stray. But he had the same idea about kindergartners as well. "You have to get them while they're young," he'd say. (Is that brain washing?) He never seemed to calculate why those who had been gotten in their formative years still strayed when they were exposed to challenges of concrete, literal minded fundamentalist ideas.

I acknowledge that not all conservatives are fundys. But, as far as I can tell, the above perspective about protection of our young people seems to be shared by many of the conservative contributors to this thread. These days, it seems, conservatism is no longer equated with fiscal responsibility or small government, but rather with an adherence to a conservative religious belief.

Whether academia is liberally loaded is not so much the question as why. Foxfire thinks college students are being "brain washed." How respectful is that to the young adults?

I don't know why conservatives object so much to the liberal challenge their young people encounter when they get to college. If they're going to be either liberal or conservative, they should know why. Challenges help us learn what we really believe, or they do when those being challenged are motivated to actually think it through rather than to fall back on concepts such as faith, whatever that is.

I've never understood the temptation to protect young people from a full range of ideas and leave it up to them to decide how they believe. But that's one of those liberal values so many conservatives prefer to ignore while carrying on about our inability to voice our own values.

It could be there are more liberal professors than conservative because they believe in thinking about what you believe rather than the more simple "faith" technique. Faith isn't science, whether hard or social.

I couldn't read this entire thread.....I didn't have time. But have the conservatives here spoken about what they think should be done about the liberal bias? Should we have quotas, heaven forbid?

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McGentrix wrote:

I guess it depends on how you gauge intelligence. There is no doubt that a professor is intelligent in their field of expertise, but that hardly qualifies them to speak in other fields.

For example; I majored in Biology in College and one of my favorite professors was this little chinese guy. I had him for 3 different classes and he and I would argue about a lot of things Biological. However, ask him a question outside his field and he would just brush it off and act like a dumb chinese guy (an act of course.). He didn't care about other stuff. He did not study history ("Leave history to historians!" he'd say).

Now, I would not consider this guy dumb in any sort of way, but he was specialized. Like most professors.

Now, Cyc, everyone knows that the liberals are the crybabies and republicans are the bullys! Dem's have taken victimhood to hieghts never imagined!

Doctors who specialize are not that different from professors, but you always need a good GP, and sometimes, a good specialist. <Very interesting post actually> I won't comment on the last statement, because I am non-partisan. Laughing

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I was intrigued that Lola put a religious connotation on the phenomenon of liberal education. But then I think some do equate conservatism with religious fanaticism. Baldimo did relate an incident in which a professor was inapprorpriate re religion, but I honestly had not thought of this whole issue in any manner of religious terms.

There is a parallel of sorts here now that I think about it. I have long protested any effort by the public schools to squelch or silence expressions of religious belief by their students and especially any inference that their religion was stupid or wrong or must be left entirely at home. I think it inappropriate to intentionally indoctrinate public school children with any manner of ideology and that would include both religion and atheism.

At the college level, I'm not so old that I can't remember viewing the credentials and expertise of my professors with the same skepticism that I viewed that of my parents. Brain washing at the university level was not a danger then and I think it is unlikely that it is a danger now as I don't think people change that much within a generation or two.

I think my quarrel with this is the growing amount of evidence that some conservative students are being flat out ostracized or punished in various ways for their conservative views. This suggests to me a narrowness that would not result in a full and balanced education one expects from an institution of higher learning. I would like to see a policy that would teach and encourage consideration of a myriad of points of view and requirements for real subjects that actually educate.

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Here's still another take on this. I would point out that Dr. Williams is a university professor of economics:

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College costs have risen dramatically over the last several decades. In many cases, it's difficult to find a college where per-student costs are under $20,000 each year. Most often, tuition doesn't measure the true cost because taxpayer and donor subsidies pay part of the expenses. While costs are rising, education quality is in precipitous decline, particularly at the undergraduate level. Part of the reason is the political climate on college campuses, where professors use their classrooms for proselytizing and indoctrination and teach classes that have little or no academic content. Let's look at some of it.

In a study to be published in Academic Questions, sociologist Charlotta Stern and economist Daniel Klein found in a random national sample of 1,678 university professors that Democratic professors outnumber Republican professors 3 to 1 in economics, 28 to 1 in sociology, and 30 to 1 in anthropology. As George Will said in his Washington Post column, "Academia, Stuck to the Left" (Nov. 28, 2004): "Many campuses are intellectual versions of one-party nations."

That strong campus leftist bias goes a long way to explain mindless university courses. . . (more)

http://www.jewishworldreview.com/cols/williams120804.asp

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I really enjoy reading anecdotal opinion pieces from posters who decry the dearth of factual evidence from others. Just recently I got a letter from this guy I once knew who saw or heard about (he doeesn't remember which) a republican who had read a book about civil rights , so I can present an informed opinion that there are republicans who can read and are interested in the issue of civil rights. On the other hand, I also knew a guy I believed to be a liberal who once told me he had read Marx (Das Kapital), proving beyond a doubt that liberals are all communists. I decry anyone to show me proof that republicans are not racists and liberals are not communists. My next door neighbor is a school teacher and a member of the teachers union which proves that teachers are really anarchists intent on leading innocent children down the primrose path to insurrection.

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I think its fascinating that somebody would equate a scientific study invoving a poll of 1,678 randomly selected professors with 'anecdotal' opinion.

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education quality is in precipitous decline

, opinion

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Part of the reason is the political climate on college campuses, where professors use their classrooms for proselytizing and indoctrination and teach classes that have little or no academic content,

opinion

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In a study to be published in Academic Questions, sociologist Charlotta Stern and economist Daniel Klein found in a random national sample of 1,678 university professors that Democratic professors outnumber Republican professors 3 to 1 in economics, 28 to 1 in sociology, and 30 to 1 in anthropology.

the only statement represented as fact is

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1,678 university professors

were sampled.

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As George Will said

opinion

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That strong campus leftist bias

opinion

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mindless university courses.

opinion
like I said....

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Better lay off the logic there, Dys, before ya hurt someone.

Cycloptichorn

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Apparently Dys didn't read the entire article linked that backed up all that 'opinion' with some pretty verifiable facts. There is a sister column the following day at Walter Williams website that further expands on it.

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I, on the other hand, did read the whole article.

Here's my favorite part:

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In a study to be published in Academic Questions, sociologist Charlotta Stern and economist Daniel Klein found in a random national sample of 1,678 university professors that Democratic professors outnumber Republican professors 3 to 1 in economics, 28 to 1 in sociology, and 30 to 1 in anthropology. As George Will said in his Washington Post column, "Academia, Stuck to the Left" (Nov. 28, 2004): "Many campuses are intellectual versions of one-party nations."

Let me ask you, Fox: why do you think this is? That Democrats outnumber Republicans 28 to 1?

Do you think it is a coincidence?

Cycloptichorn

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Foxfyre wrote:

Apparently Dys didn't read the entire article linked that backed up all that 'opinion' with some pretty verifiable facts. There is a sister column the following day at Walter Williams website that further expands on it.

Please point out the verifiable facts, I did read each and every word and found none other than more opinions stated by the author. For someone that continues to demand facts over opinions I find this to be transparently lacking your rigorous criteria expected of others.

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