Lack of Men

There's only the amount of "magic" you can create. Love is a construct. It's a deal, a partnership. Like everything else in society BTW. A construct which can go as high as you dare. It's one you can long for, build, destroy, rebuild sometimes. It vanishes after 7 mn, 7 months, 7 or 77 years. But one thing is certain: when it's there, it's pretty damn good!

I agree with this completely. Your original article is dealing with the problem of finding a partner. Once you find a suitable partner, and especially once the neuro-chemicals kick in, then everything you say is true.

Cabrel! J'y crois pas!

J'adore, of course. My wife too. She's called Maria so "our" song was and remains Petite Marie.

Alors mon cher, petit ce mond non?...

This one ain't bad either, on the topic...

Incroyable... Bon, quelqu'un qui aime Cabrel ne peut pas être entièrement mauvais...

...well, come le dire, my left side of the brain is kind of divorced from my right side...they disagree all the time.

Now I know which brain of yours I need to talk to !

While I agree that there is some hard wiring in human males brains for mates that are fertile gene perpetuators (as superficially demonstrated by certain body types), and in female brains for providers and protectors for themselves and their offspring. I don't think this genetic programming in the primary force in mate selection today.

I was married at age 18 and to a woman who was well above my weight class in terms of appearance. She's a true beauty and that, obviously attracted me to her, but I can't imagine having married her (even at such a young age) if she wasn't also exceedingly intelligent, and funny as hell. (She also has a number of other great traits like generosity, work ethic, etc, but, honestly, I didn't care about those at age 18). I'm hardly Caliban, but at best, I'm average in looks. If you were to ask her why she was attracted to me she would tell you looks, but I think that followed from what she would also tell you: intelligence, sense of humor, confidence and the way I interacted with her two year old brother ( he loved me and it was actually a source of tension with her father).
Now these last two could be seen as part of a hardwired response, and maybe intelligence as well, but sense of humor? Where's the biological advantage there?

Over the years, I have found that a sense of humor is something a great deal of women find attractive in a man. It may not be the #1 trait but in some cases it was. I think that it means more to women than men, but I have no idea why.

Julia Roberts married Lyle Lovett. I don't know of any "handsome" male celebrity who has married a woman as ugly as Lyle. It wasn't his earning potential that attracted her because she was making far more than him, and it sure wasn't his physical prowess (if you don't know who he is, Google his name).

Now I think he's brilliant and he seems like a real nice guy, but by any standard, he's flat out ugly. He thinks so too. I take absolutely no pride in this but I can tell you the chance of me every falling in love with a "beast" like Lyle is probably less than one percent. Hardwiring?

One of the big differences, I believe, between men and women is that a woman can be a friend of an attractive man without eventually thinking (I want to have sex with him!") I don't think the same can be said for most men. My "best" female friends are women who I don't find physically attractive...but they are all funny as hell. I don't want complications.

Women, I believe, are far more capable of finding a homely man attractive after they come to know them than men are with homely women. It doesn't speak well for our gender, but I think it's the case (In general...no need for some enlightened male to swoop in and say I'm wrong because they are in love with a homely woman.)

I just read something about a study by a conservative think tank (can't recall which) that provides real hard data concerning a progression in life that will lead to success: Get, at least, a HS Degree. Get married. Have children only after you are married. The data is incredibly convincing that this is the case. However it wasn't the results of the study that is apropos to this thread but the comment by one of the folks who carried out the study. She argued that the notion that we need to find a soulmate to be happy(which really is of fairly recent vintage) has created a terrible dynamic for Westerners and Western families.

Now I did and I've been married for 45 years, but, obviously, it took work to last this long. It wasn't all clear sailing on a sea of romance and sex, but if you really found your soulmate it will only be confirmed after a great many years of struggling together, united in purpose and desire.

I don't know what I would tell these women, but it would probably be what I've told all my kids:

#1 Don't marry anyone you can stand being away from for any period of time. (To me that's the easy part. Passion generally fades not grows)

#2 Think about your life and your role models. If your girlfriend or boyfriend is not only unlike all the people you care most about but is in stark contrast to them, there's a damned good chance it won't work out.

#3 Do they make you laugh? Do they make you think? Can you grow with them? (The last bit is the toughest)

Ha - off the top of my head I can't think of a celebrity type couple where the woman is very unattractive (maybe in part because it is harder to be an ugly celebrity as a woman).

But I know several couples that is the case. I wondered over and over on one particular couple (as I am not close to them just know them sorta via my kids' elementary school). The woman was (probably still is just haven't seen them for a while) big, not necessarily hugely overweight just what you would call a big girl overall with very plain features - doesn't dress attractively at all. Almost is manly in appearance. Her husband is what I would consider attractive - she is physically bigger than him - not hugely as he has a deceit build he is not scrawny - she is just as I said a big plain looking girl. It always baffled me. Granted I don't know their total situation.

I know other examples as well. So it does happen. I agree - you tend to see it the other way around more often - maybe that is why this couple tends to baffle me.

I've no idea at all whether or not this is applicable to the couple you know but there are some men (skinny) who find obese women attractive.

yeah I have seen that, but the guy isn't skinny. He has a good build. And she isn't obese - she is overweight, but more just big overall height and bone structure (almost more solid than fat in a sense like you kind of picture in that attractive overweight situation) and a very plain face. I've seen that where you have an obese woman that is attractive - I had a roommate like that and she didn't have an issue having men attracted to her.

It is different in that she (my former roommate) would dress attractively with make up and her hair done nice she was just very over weight. This woman doesn't try to make her self look attractive - no makeup, plain hair and clothes. Almost a rumpled and very plain look to her. I think that is what I find baffling - he appears attractive and put together and she looks all in disarray.

Like I wrote, I'm speaking in general terms. I'm sure there are men out there who would uplift our gender by not caring about looks, but I guarantee you that they are in the minority.

We are mostly creatures of the current society. So, back in the '60's, in the heyday of Esquire and Playboy magazines, many a young man thought that there was some unknown (to him) population of financially successful males that dated young, attractive airline stewardesses, and if they married one, their children need not worry, since children, at that time, "inherited" their social class from the father, not the mother. That might be changing today, since it is possible that children "brag" of their mothers' high achievements, and not their fathers' lesser achievements?

But, who knows the unconscious motivations for girls to get higher education. It once might have been to "catch" a college boy. Is it now to be financially independent, as a married woman or single woman? Is it to avoid marriage altogether, based on the knowledge that there is a smaller population of educated males?

Perhaps, the point is that this thread is really a social analysis of white, middle-class America. Immigrants that come here have kids, and are happy that their children are fed well, get a modicum of education, and if they get a nominally paying job, they are winners. If we run out of the Leave It To Beaver demographic, we will have plenty of Americans that will add to the diversity of the U.S.

I agree with your comments re sense of humor. In a way, I thing having a sense of humor is a way of having perspective re yourself and others.

Pretty much the only useful thing my mother said to me when I left for university was : only have sex with men who make you laugh. My mother felt that a sense of humor is a sign of significant intelligence.

__

the thing that eventually really struck me about my mother's comment was her assumption that there would be more than one good man to have sex with. other mothers in the neighbourhood were going on about only having sex with the man you marry.

That of course is pretty good.... that she was that smart and that you two had that kind of relationship.

HI BETH!

It's also highly enjoyable. Who doesn't like to laugh?

Okay, so you think it starts as a market but then can become something else depending on the chemistry between two individuals. I think I agree with that.

I guess then my point boils down to: the market price is just the price of the original investment, eg when you start a company you need to make some initial investment. But what you are REALLY after is the return on investment: what you MAKE with your investment. And success often means "proving the market wrong", ie that a particular investment was undervalued.

In the case of a marriage, what you make of it depends only on you and your partner (and ok, circumstances). Like a smart investor can make an undervalued property shine, a person can chose a partner that his or her social network (friends, peers, family, the "market") disapproves of, and make it work.

Sometimes it'd be the right thing to do, as in the case of the OP.

I agree with that Olivier. You can have a great relationship with someone who isn't considered "desirable" by the dating market.

The mechanics of the dating market are interesting to me. What is the process by which people in a dating pool pair up? I don't know if you are participating in the dating market now (it is unclear from your posts). What I observe are a lot of men competing for a small number of desirable women, and a lot of women competing for a small number of men. Every so often, a pair forms. Some of these relationships go on to be successful. Some relationships end in failure.

As the article suggests, there seem to be a number of people who stay single. That happens when the market fails to find an acceptable partner who finds you acceptable. It is possible that they could be happy by choosing to "settle" for someone who they didn't initially find acceptable.