Blacks and women celebrate Condi Rice.

Foxfyre wrote:

Yeah I'm feeling bitchy and it will be all better after a good night's sleep. But I get so damn tired of the nit picking. Surely people can find something significant to complain about.

Lol - but this whole thread is a complaint!

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well, fer sure, I am trying to complain that when I drive my Porsche 911/ Carrera on the east side, i get comments like " is that the new BMW, I didn't know that had red paint, I thought they all came in blue or grey" Bastids!!! It's Porsche Guards Red!!!

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nimh wrote:

Larry434 wrote:
According to who...you, d2k?

I think you are a bit put out by this black woman who has acheived so much despite the odds, whereas you, with the benefit of being a white male have...........

Huh - funny. Just imagine the righteous indignation if any liberal went full frontal race-baiting like Larry's doing here - "you don't like Jesse Jackson? You must be a racist!" Isn't that exactly the kind of purportedly used logic conservatives been ranting against? So how's it suddenly OK to do it now the other way round? Is it a semi-tongue in cheek nyah nyah now-we-can-say-it-to-you-for-a-change revenge thingie, or do you actually believe it and does the irony of that totally passes you by?

Thank goddess! Somebody, at least, understands the hilarious irony I have been pointing out!

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Well yeah, over here on the east side we drive Yugos and Ford trucks. Probably some have never seen a Porsche.

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You still drive YUGOs!!?? Razz

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What is a Yugo?

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dlowan wrote:

Lash wrote:
dlowan--

As I stated earlier--political correctness is one thing--blatant racism is another. I don't know how easily other people see it-- I know it when I see it. Of course, we all don't see the same thing...

But, please be assured-- Being against PC is not synonymous with being pro-racism. My zeal to question PC is equal to the same importance in calling out unadulterated racism.

To me, it's like the difference in your high school coach touching your shoulder--or squeezing your breast--

Calling a black woman in the public arena "Aunt Jemima" is racist. Period.

Her silence on the matter is admirable.

FOX--

Hilarious article. Condi doesn't exude sexuality??!! How dare she! She could take a few lessons from Eleanor Smeal--or Hillary Clinton.

Yes - but your complaint appears to be that all blacks and all women are not ecstatic at her appointment, and saying so loudly and publicly, despite progressive folk in both categories believing that her policies and ideology are bad for everyone, just because she is a black woman?????

What a gross intentional misrepresentation. You must really get something out of this--you do it so often...
It was this that I was commenting on.

Er - I would have thought that you would see being for blacks and women in high places - no matter what their beliefs and actions are - as being PC? Yet - here you are advocating it!
No wonder you libs are so far out of the loop. I've already said a couple of times that what you have said here is inaccurate. "Being for" someone, and recognising their achievements are completely different things. Much like how Bush and Clinton have behaved more than a couple of times together. Everything is not partisan. Condi Rice and Clarence Thomas have both been slighted by the groups that scour storm drains for positive role models. No matter what their politics, it is wrong. You don't have to agree with their politics to acknowledge what they have done with their lives.
But on that subject, what are you trying to say? That ALL progressive people are racist?

....they seem to be, now that you ask. But,I'm more concerned about the ones who call a black woman in the public arena "Aunt Jemima"; yes, they're racists. The ones who stereotype women and blacks as liberals, and censure and ostracize them when they don't fall in line; yes, they're racists and sexists. Racism/sexism--Expecting and demanding certain behavior from a minority due to their gender or ethnicity.

Its always wrong. Even when the libs do it.

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"What a gross intentional misrepresentation. You must really get something out of this--you do it so often..."

Aside from your normal insults, please explain how I have misrepresented you?

This is what you said:"It is wild to me how such an effective, strong, woman--the closest advisor to the most powerful person in the world--has garnered no more support, no accolades from women and blacks--two groups who are always trying to find successful sisters or positive stories of black achievement.

I have noticed a distinct discrimination among women and blacks in whom they will ballyhoo, and whom they won't. If any other woman in this country had soared to the heights Condi has reached, it would be Mardi Gras 24/7..."

Please - what ARE you saying if not that you expect all blacks and women to carry on with joy about Condi?

Yes, there IS a distinct discrimination amongst womens and blacks about whom they will ballyhoo - sensible ones at least - for intelligent ones I would suggest it is based on whether they believe them to be dangerous and misguided or not - just as a starter.

WHY exactly, are you suggesting that blacks and women should, en masse, support this woman - if they abhor her views?

And please, don't try the "I never suggested they all should" - that is what you wrote.

If you wrote wrongly, correct it - but do not deny your own words.

I shall repeat it for you:

"from women and blacks-"

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OK. So there are these three kids in a playground, Alfred, Benny and Chris. Benny takes a handful of sand and throws it at Chris. Benny takes another handful of sand and throws it at Chris. Benny does this for oh a bucketful or two of sand. Then Alfred takes a handful of sand and throws it at Chris. Benny gets all shocked and says how can you be throwing sand at Chris! That's just wrong!

Major, major generalizing. And yes, throwing sand at Chris is wrong, you betcha. It's just the historic sand-throwing from conservatives that we're commenting on. Turnabout, that's cool, growth, ya know, excellent. <sincere>

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I think Rice and Powell could (and probably should) be held up as role models in terms of personal achievement, at least - thats whats done with other blacks who made it big, after all. So up to that point I agree with Lash.

I think the reason that's not done is obviously enough one of political distaste, though, and I dont see how it needs to be a question of racism, instead. I mean, be honest: did conservative organisations praise Jesse Jackson as a role model of at least personal achievement, even if accompanied with the sidenote that they thought his ideas were all wrong? No, of course they didn't. Jesse Jackson reprsented politics they found so despicable that most of them could not find themselves able of even praising him or holding him up for his personal achievements (being the first black politician to run an influential presidential primary campaign, etc).

The political polarisation has gone far enough to make it unpalatable for either side to acknowledge even just an accomplishment in terms of ambition or willpower of folks from the other side, outshadowed as any of that is felt to be by the evil their politics are seen to be.

At this point in time, most liberals in the US would probably rather bite their tongue off than say something nice about any prominent Bush Cabinet member, on whatever count. Call it bitterness, but racism? I just dont see it, and I find your argument about it a little tortured, in fact.

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(I've said plenty of nice things about Powell. Ms. Rice does not impress, however, on several levels. And I very much agree with the point that color-blindness needs to extend to negativity -- if a group is somehow above reproach merely because of their skin color, that is itself patronizing/ disrespectful.)

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I dunno, nimh. This conservative never had, nor do I have now, any problem praising Clinton for his personal acheivments as a good old boy who made good.

I acknowledge him as a politician of extraordinary skill at governing.

So it is not fair to say all of us on one side will say nothing good about those on the other.

But it is interesting that 3 of the most criticized people for being lackeys serving in our current government are all black....Rice, Powell, and Thomas.

What do you make of that?

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If anyone said they shouldn't be criticised, please speak up. I'd like to see who you are.

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Actually, not being privy to all the stuff being said in the US, I can't comment on all the media - but the NYT and Washington Post - both seen as "liberal" by the right in the USA - have commented very favourably on the strengths of both

On a personal level, I have said often how great I think it is for the US to have reached a point of appointing them.

On this very threasd I have commented on her abilities - and elsewhere on Powells.

I am not sure if you are addressing the media, Ninh - or individual progressives?

If you are speaking of individuals, I deny your accusation on a personal level.

But you are right, despite my joy at the US having reached this point, I consider Bush having put someone with her politics where Powell, who provided a somewhat balancing view, had previously been, a very negative and scary step - since I see this administration as becoming more and more closed and insular. I do not see her as negatively, of course, as those who demonize her do - but I really cannot go wild with joy about her appointment!

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Larry434 wrote:

I dunno, nimh. This conservative never had, nor do I have now, any problem praising Clinton for his personal acheivments as a good old boy who made good.

I acknowledge him as a politician of extraordinary skill at governing.

So it is not fair to say all of us on one side will say nothing good about those on the other.

But it is interesting that 3 of the most criticized people for being lackeys serving in our current government are all black....Rice, Powell, and Thomas.

What do you make of that?

Did you Larry?

Good on you!

I wonder if the "lackey" stuff comes from having higher expectations of black people in terms of standing up to negativities in the administrations they serve?

A sort of backwards racism?

This is common for groups of people who make it big where few have gone before - that people expect a lot more of them.

I would not generally have criticised Powell - because I understood him - as I said above - to have been a voice of reason and moderation behind the scenes - the sole exception being his speech to the UN. I think he did - at least to some extent - know what falsehoods he was voicing - and this is the sole occasion where I would call him a lackey.

Lackey here doesn't have racist undertones. I take it it does in the US?

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When I read Rice's bio, I am extraordinarily impressed. That woman achieved. But politically, she represents, to me, some of the most dangerous, callous and neglectful actions of the Bush admin. So if I were some black or women's organisations head honcho, I'd sure invite her to some inform-and-inspire-the-kids-about-making-it-in-life Convention. Role model in that sense, sure. But a laudatory editorial upon her confirmation at the State Dept? Fuhgettabout it, no effin' way. All the less so because she achieved a lot for herself, but hasn't shown much particular involvement with achieving things for other blacks, the Afro-American community.

Isn't that the two planes of merit that both Lash and the people she's criticizing seem to be unable to separate properly?

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Nimh makes a good point about Jesse Jackson.

Still, I'd be uncomfortable (queasy, actually) seeing him caricatured as a black man. There's just no reason for it, that I can see.

I'd be devastated (and really, really embarrassed for humanity) if someone took a dislike to Barack Obama and caricatured him or called him racist names, too.

This is 2004 for pete's sake. There surely are other ways to show dislike of a political figure without resorting to these racist tactics...no matter which side one is on.

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(Rice) hasn't shown much particular involvement with achieving things for other blacks, the Afro-American community.

Why does anyone think it is incumbent on blacks who pull themselves up by their bootstraps and achieve great things to have an "involvement with achieving things for other blacks, the Afro-American community".?

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nimh wrote:

I think Rice and Powell could (and probably should) be held up as role models in terms of personal achievement, at least - thats whats done with other blacks who made it big, after all. So up to that point I agree with Lash.

I think the reason that's not done is obviously enough one of political distaste, though, and I dont see how it needs to be a question of racism, instead. I mean, be honest: did conservative organisations praise Jesse Jackson as a role model of at least personal achievement, even if accompanied with the sidenote that they thought his ideas were all wrong? No, of course they didn't. Jesse Jackson reprsented politics they found so despicable that most of them could not find themselves able of even praising him or holding him up for his personal achievements (being the first black politician to run an influential presidential primary campaign, etc).

The political polarisation has gone far enough to make it unpalatable for either side to acknowledge even just an accomplishment in terms of ambition or willpower of folks from the other side, outshadowed as any of that is felt to be by the evil their politics are seen to be.

At this point in time, most liberals in the US would probably rather bite their tongue off than say something nice about any prominent Bush Cabinet member, on whatever count. Call it bitterness, but racism? I just dont see it, and I find your argument about it a little tortured, in fact.

Nimh-- I'm going to stop complaining about this. I just personally think its awful that a woman or a black man who see the world from a conservative viewpoint are called Aunt Jemima and Uncle Tom. It is 2004. There is no excuse for it. The liberal papers are spewing this insuling tripe about them. Blacks and women who make it big are celebrated as long as they're liberal.

Racism and sexism are approved if the victims are conservatives.

References to Condi as Aunt Jemima are all over the web.

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Larry434 wrote:

I acknowledge him as a politician of extraordinary skill at governing.

So it is not fair to say all of us on one side will say nothing good about those on the other.

Granted. <tips hat>

Larry434 wrote:

But it is interesting that 3 of the most criticized people for being lackeys serving in our current government are all black....Rice, Powell, and Thomas.

What do you make of that?

Dunno. Dunno if it's true, for one. I'm pretty damn sure that Rice has not been criticized more harshly than Rumsfeld - if anything, a lot less. Or than Cheney, for example.

If there's a specific pattern on the word "lackey", that would be interesting, yeah. I'd think it would come forth from a great many blacks seeing this government (or the Republican Party) as selling out on them, and thus resenting any prominent black that is willing to give that government a respectable multicultural face nevertheless. I mean, there's a logic in that resentment, even if it's not sympathetic. Personally, I think the logic is wrong, in the sense that the individual always still overrides the ethnic, and if a black person like Rice happens to disagree with the black CW and think instead that this government is actually a good thing, well, they'll just have to accept that, too - not as a "betrayal" of the community's cohesion but simply as dissent from its common wisdoms. However, to expect them to actually jump and cheer at the prospect doesnt seem reasonable to me.

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Blacks and women celebrate Condi Rice.

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