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The Ultimate Mass Murderer

 
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Nov, 2004 08:57 pm
Steppenwolf wrote:
I still fail to see the link between the EPA's regulatory policy and malaria deaths outside the U.S. (and hence outside of the EPA's jurisdiction). But you keep citing the 90 million figure without addressing this critical short-coming in your argument--that's intellectually irresponsible and dishonest.

Cut and run, or face the music.


http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,55843,00.html

Quote:

DDT use has virtually disappeared. Many countries blindly followed the U.S. ban or succumbed to activist pressure. Activists recently succeeded in pushing a virtual world-wide ban in the form of a United Nations' treaty signed by the Bush administration, but not yet ratified by the Senate. The Persistent Organic Pollutants (POPs) treaty would permit DDT use only through expensive bureaucratic processes designed to dissuade rather than encourage use.


Article also totally destroys arguments involving eggshell thinning amongst raptors, amongst other things.
0 Replies
 
Adrian
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Nov, 2004 09:45 pm
It does no such thing gunga, it's a FOX news article.

Found this.

An interesting read, talks about the fact that DDT spraying may actually kill just as many infants as it saves from malaria.

Has lots of good references too.
0 Replies
 
Steppenwolf
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Nov, 2004 09:53 pm
edit--long double post removed. See below.
0 Replies
 
Steppenwolf
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Nov, 2004 09:53 pm
gungasnake wrote:
Steppenwolf wrote:
I still fail to see the link between the EPA's regulatory policy and malaria deaths outside the U.S. (and hence outside of the EPA's jurisdiction). But you keep citing the 90 million figure without addressing this critical short-coming in your argument--that's intellectually irresponsible and dishonest.

Cut and run, or face the music.


http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,55843,00.html

Quote:

DDT use has virtually disappeared. Many countries blindly followed the U.S. ban or succumbed to activist pressure. Activists recently succeeded in pushing a virtual world-wide ban in the form of a United Nations' treaty signed by the Bush administration, but not yet ratified by the Senate. The Persistent Organic Pollutants (POPs) treaty would permit DDT use only through expensive bureaucratic processes designed to dissuade rather than encourage use.


Article also totally destroys arguments involving eggshell thinning amongst raptors, amongst other things.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Nov, 2004 10:04 pm
The Dewitt experiments used collected eggs Studies i England in the 70s through the 90s have actually measured thhe thinning of a number of bird shells and thhe heavy species were where the most species were lost because thhe smaller birds had 2 or more broods per year and lost fewer . Eagle eggs were measured in the field aand crushed shells were noted and measured. Eagles were almost extinct in PA in 1972 and it took restoration using Alaska raised pairs being introduced. When DDT was depurating in fish flesh the US FW actually did shell thickness measurements and found them rebounding into the 1980s and 90s. Is this a coincidence? The first eagles introduced failed to fledge because as fish eaters they were still getting DDT in fish flesh and the chemical is fat soluble like PCB, so it stayed in the fish flesh for a number of years. In the 80sthe shells appeared to becoming thicker as field technicians saw the populations rising.

Theyve been using DDT in S africa anyway and many states had continued its use, but theyve found that fish are also killed , not just mosquitoes. All the organochlorines break down and form phosgene which is a carcinogen. Weve dropped use in ALdrin, Toxaphene, Chlordane etc and with newer Integraated pest management we can kill mosquitoes without losing food fish and parts of the ecosystem.
Its not a matter of"lets start a complete reuse of DDT , lets instead maybe use it indoors in subsahara and use IMP and less lingering pesticides outside. weve come a long way since 1890s when DDT was discovered. We know a lot about chlorinated compounds thhat we didnt then.
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Nov, 2004 11:55 pm
farmerman wrote:
The Dewitt experiments used collected eggs Studies i England in the 70s through the 90s have actually measured thhe thinning of a number of bird shells blah, blah, blah........




http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,55843,00.html

Quote:

Activists blamed DDT for the disappearance of great birds such as the bald eagle and peregrine falcon. Supposedly, the insecticide harmed bird reproduction by thinning egg shells.

But the bald eagle and peregrine falcon were hunted to near extinction decades before DDT was first used in the U.S.

Many human and environmental stressors can contribute to thin egg shells. Laboratory experiments purporting to link DDT with egg shell thinning involved massive doses of the chemical, far in excess of what occurred in the wild.

Moreover, bald eagle and falcon populations were already rebounding during the peak years of DDT use - thanks to laws limiting their hunting.



Steven Milloy is the publisher of JunkScience.com, an adjunct scholar at the Cato Institute and the author of Junk Science Judo: Self-defense Against Health Scares and Scams (Cato Institute, 2001).
0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Nov, 2004 01:01 am
From what I understand, DDT is not soluble in water, but it is soluble in oils. DDT and kerosine solutions are common. It is still used in Mexico.
0 Replies
 
Magus
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Nov, 2004 03:10 pm
This thread joins the many initiated by Gun-snake which idolize death and violence...

and recalls to mind the line uttered by Jeff Goldblum in "Jurassic Park":

"What a pile of... "
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Nov, 2004 03:42 pm
Magus wrote:
This thread joins the many initiated by Gun-snake which idolize death and violence...

and recalls to mind the line uttered by Jeff Goldblum in "Jurassic Park":

"What a pile of... "


Gee, Magus, "your continual classical references never cease to amaze me. I stand in awe of your erudition."

Now that we have had a glib and irrelevant remark from Magus ... this thread of Gungas' is now complete.
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Nov, 2004 03:43 pm
Magus wrote:
This thread joins the many initiated by Gun-snake which idolize death and violence...

and recalls to mind the line uttered by Jeff Goldblum in "Jurassic Park":

"What a pile of... "



I'm not "idolizing death and violence". I'm merely pointing out the fact that idiot yuppie leftist pseudoscientists managed to kill ninety million people in a single perverted beaurocratic move.

My advice to you leftists: don't try to hide who you are or what you've done or be ashamed of it. Stand tall. Be proud. You should look the world straight in the eye and say "We leftist yuppie pseudoscientists killed ninety million people by banning DDT, and we're awfully goddamned proud of it!!"
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Nov, 2004 03:48 pm
The Malaria Clock[/b]

Green Eco/Imperialist Legacy of Death:

http://www.junkscience.com/malaria_clock.htm
0 Replies
 
cavfancier
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Nov, 2004 03:49 pm
Ticomaya wrote:
Magus wrote:
This thread joins the many initiated by Gun-snake which idolize death and violence...

and recalls to mind the line uttered by Jeff Goldblum in "Jurassic Park":

"What a pile of... "


Gee, Magus, "your continual classical references never cease to amaze me. I stand in awe of your erudition."

Now that we have had a glib and irrelevant remark from Magus ... this thread of Gungas' is now complete.


Apparently not, but I wish it were.
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Nov, 2004 03:55 pm
cavfancier wrote:
Ticomaya wrote:
Magus wrote:
This thread joins the many initiated by Gun-snake which idolize death and violence...

and recalls to mind the line uttered by Jeff Goldblum in "Jurassic Park":

"What a pile of... "


Gee, Magus, "your continual classical references never cease to amaze me. I stand in awe of your erudition."

Now that we have had a glib and irrelevant remark from Magus ... this thread of Gungas' is now complete.


Apparently not, but I wish it were.


Laughing

Sorry ... I thought I saw the finish line. Carry on GS.
0 Replies
 
cavfancier
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Nov, 2004 03:58 pm
Laughing Yes, please do gunga.
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Nov, 2004 04:20 pm
Hmmm - my research is suggesting that, while malaria mosquitoes have now gained significant immunity to the pyrethoids which were used to replace DDT when the US ceased production in 1972 (which, I understand, they were already doing to DDT), and that the netting etc that was attempted as a replacement were not found to be sufficient, that the countries most thratened by malaria, and where it has made a come-back, have successfully negotiated exemptions in the POP treaty that is due to come into effect next year:



Dear Colleagues,

At the end of this long and successful campaign, the Malaria Foundation International (MFI) and the Malaria Project (MP) would like to both thank and congratulate you and the many parties for valuable assistance that helped to succesfully obtain an exemption for DDT at the INC 5 POP's negotiations recently in South Africa.

In particular, we thank the over 400 doctors and scientists from 63 countries, who lent strong support last year when this issue was first brought to the attention of the scientific community. It was due only to this strong support of yourselves, voiced together with others in the public health community, that DDT was not slated for elimination along with the 11 other chemicals on the treaty.

This outcome will save many lives, and it also demonstrates the power of coherent advocacy in achieving public health goals, which is a critical function served by the Malaria Foundation International........


http://www.malaria.org/DDTpage.html

I gather that spraying indoors in people's homes has often continued - with DDT manufactured in India and China.


The BBC has an interesting article here:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/3532273.stm

which is worth reading since, if one if able to ignore Gunga's usual rather hysterical tone and distorted and distorting polemics, it is an interesting topic - one that illustrates the difficulties of finding a balance between environmental concerns, and the real needs of people in poor countries.

Here http://www.post-gazette.com/healthscience/20020721malaria3.asp is another intersting article.

And, this, on a cursory glance, appeared a reasonable discussion of resurgent malaria in South America : http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/EID/vol3no3/roberts.htm

Wouldn't it be good if, despite Gunga's tone - this turned into a reasonable discussion?
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Nov, 2004 04:28 pm
Gunga,

I've read through this thread and was prepared to change my mind regarding DDT, but I do not find your sources or your argument persuasive.

Also, I find the manner in which you started the thread to be offensive.
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Nov, 2004 04:33 pm
Merlin - it seems to me that Gunga's sources are, of course, wildly skewed to one side - but that, if one takes the trouble to find more reasonable sources, the issue is a genuine one and worth discussing.

Sometimes we can claim threads for reasonable discourse that were never meant to be such - a small but enjoyable victory over polemic, no?
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Nov, 2004 05:35 pm
I'll say it again since it didn't seem to register the first time, one of my sources is a buddy who studied under Heinz Meng and a couple of the other most major experts on the topic of raptors, and claims that Meng himself had stated that the entire case against DDT was bullshit, and that raptors were being HUNTED to extinction in the fifties and sixties, and were then beginning to rebuild their numbers at the height of DDT usage, after hunting them was banned.
0 Replies
 
Adrian
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Nov, 2004 05:41 pm
dlowan-

I would like very much for this to become a serious discussion. The topic is important and interesting.

The title of the thread makes it hard.

Posts like this;

Quote:
I'm not "idolizing death and violence". I'm merely pointing out the fact that idiot yuppie leftist pseudoscientists managed to kill ninety million people in a single perverted beaurocratic move.


from gungasnake make it hard.

Constant reference to, (The Kings Of), junkscience.com make it hard.

But I'll stick around..... see where it goes.

So I'm sure everyone that cares has probably seen this but there is an interesting piece about the founder of junkscience HERE.

Quote:
But one close look a TASSC's record will show a different picture. TASSC officials have regularly criticised highly-recognised and perfectly legitimate studies ranging from the quality of drinking water to the safety of baby food. TASSC claims that these adverse health reports are based on dubious science and are employing scare tactics to drum up financial support -- but they don't reveal where their own funding support comes from. In fact, it comes from Phillip Morris and other major US organisations with pollution and health problems.

Like all good public relations, the strength of the message being sold depends to a very large degree on the credibility of the organisation. Credibility is best promoted by merging genuine and fake claims, with the legitimate information blended carefully with the skillfully-crafted backlash material. When credibility has been established though a list of reputable scientists acting as advisors, it steadily becomes easier to make a claim of "junk-science" stick.

This is Milloy's particular skill. He is the best in the PR profession at blending legitimate criticism of bad science (and there's plenty around) with illegitimate criticism of science that is against his clients financial interests.

TASSC's scientists/members lend their names to the organisation on the basis that it's mission is purely one of advancing good scientific practice. They do so in the belief that TASSC is closely associated with government and environmental groups. Of course, that's not the whole story, but most of the scientists don't know that. Nor do the media, who are equally gullible.
0 Replies
 
Dartagnan
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Nov, 2004 05:41 pm
One of your sources is a buddy. That's enough to convince me of whatever you're selling here, snake, which I gather is something along the lines of Rachel Carson being a worse scourge than Attila the Hun.

To think they had us read "Silent Spring" in high school. The mind boggles...
0 Replies
 
 

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