26
   

Special Counsel for Russia Election Interference: Robert Mueller.

 
 
oralloy
 
  -4  
Reply Sat 20 May, 2017 11:24 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:
Two wrongs don't make a right is a simple but powerful maxim. I agree that to some extent the Republicans need to be more like the Democrats but not in terms of their worst excesses.

I vehemently reject the principle that two wrongs don't make a right. It leads to a permanent double standard where one side is always above the law.
oralloy
 
  -3  
Reply Sat 20 May, 2017 11:26 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:
Who knows how this will all impact national or even local elections, but the messier it becomes the more likely it will be that there will be a reflexive backlash against one of the parties. Most likely it will be the Republicans, but we shouldn't dismiss the possibility that the Democrats will so stridently overplay their hand that they suffer an even greater loss of support than they already have.

Trump actually has an easy path towards turning this into a 2018 election victory.

All he has to do is hold a bunch of those those big campaign rallies for his supporters in all of the states where there is a close Senate race, and ask his supporters to vote for the Republican candidate in order to help overcome the witch hunt that is being waged against him.

Whether he will do that or not I don't know.


Finn dAbuzz wrote:
No matter how it turns out, the desire for revenge will have been burned into a lot of hearts. Even if Trump is exonerated, Republicans will hold onto a desire to pay back the Democrats for creating and pursuing a witch hunt. If it ends his presidency and results in crushing defeats for the GOP in elections, their desire for revenge will burn that much hotter.

I'm thinking the Democratic Party needs to be outlawed. Obviously it would be unconstitutional to do this over ideological reasons, but I suggest that it be done because they are maliciously trying to destroy innocent people with fraudulent charges of criminality.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -3  
Reply Sat 20 May, 2017 11:31 pm
@farmerman,
farmerman wrote:
Finn dAbuzz wrote:
I don't believe evidence of collusion by Trump will be found,

just because you wish to believe that, doesnt make it so.

The fact that there is no such evidence and these charges are all malicious Democratic concoctions will make it so.
oralloy
 
  -3  
Reply Sat 20 May, 2017 11:32 pm
@layman,
layman wrote:
Just made this post in another thread, and thought I'd throw it in here, too. There's a kinda interesting video at this site where the left-wing Harvard law professor, Dershowitz explains why he thinks a special prosecutor could help Trump.
Quote:
Although many on the left have expressed their approval of Robert Mueller being appointed as special counsel to investigate possible collusion between the Trump campaign and Russia, Alan Dershowitz thinks Mueller could actually vindicate President Donald Trump, rather than bring about his downfall.

http://insider.foxnews.com/2017/05/19/alan-dershowitz-questions-russia-special-counsel-says-theres-no-crime

Like Fitzgerald helped the Bush Administration when he determined that the Plame leaks did not come from them?

(Sarcasm obviously.)

This investigation isn't about trying to find the truth. It is about trying to destroy people by wrongly convicting them of untrue charges.

Of course turning up the truth would help Trump. But no part of this investigation is trying to turn up the truth.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 May, 2017 09:50 am
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:

Finn dAbuzz wrote:
Two wrongs don't make a right is a simple but powerful maxim. I agree that to some extent the Republicans need to be more like the Democrats but not in terms of their worst excesses.

I vehemently reject the principle that two wrongs don't make a right. It leads to a permanent double standard where one side is always above the law.


Then you believe two wrongs make a right.

From a purely Machiavellian standpoint, two wrongs can make a temporary success. The notion that by playing the Democrats' games, Republicans can somehow prevent them from continuing them doesn't make much sense to me.

If you treat politics as war, then I agree that the Republicans should not hold any punches, but then I'm one of the few people who believe there should be no Rules of War. If the belief is that winning more than compensates for the costs of victory and the goal is to win at all costs, the the Republicans should throw out the stricture of two wrongs don't make a right.

Personally, I don't think politics should be waged like war and I believe that certain costs of winning can easily overwhelm the value of a victory in both the short and long term.

While I may have a great deal of faith in the premise that conservative principles will lead to our best chance for prosperity for all, I have very little faith in the principles of politicians and that includes Republican ones. They are certainly not capable of a feat that I'm not sure anyone can pull off: Produce something good through bad means.
farmerman
 
  6  
Reply Sun 21 May, 2017 10:57 am
@oralloy,
Quote:
The fact that there is no such evidence and these charges are all malicious Democratic concoctions will make it so.

No, the actual facts are that the administration has had a number of suspicious contacts with Russians before and after the election(contacts that they initially tried to deny or then hide). The admin knew of these contacts and really did nothing until Pence was lied to by Flynn about these very facts. The president made several statements that could be considered incriminating (Unless of course Trump ws high when he said em). Several Trump admin members have been sacked or otherwise demoted or have sworn recusal due to the above.

I think one could go to a GRAND JURY with that initial data and factual evidence and then proceed with a detailed investigation that will or will not support the underlying concerns with these facts in evidence.

There is NO EVIDENCE that Trump was either in collusion with the Russians or knew about these Russian contacts and lied about it. That is some of what the investigation should address.

If its like anything from the Clinton yers, the special counsel wont come up with anything earth shaking , but the Principal under investigation has a few years to come up with anything else. Clinton had nothing against him until he began doing Monica.

You guys have the best of worlds cause its free advertisement for Trump as its rather hard to sustain passionate support in the USA without the creation of threats from outside or within
Finn dAbuzz
 
  -2  
Reply Sun 21 May, 2017 02:22 pm
@farmerman,
No....the fact is that no evidence of collusion that has been made public, despite the fact that a great deal of resources have been devoted to finding it and it is absurd to believe that if and when such evidence is found, that it will be kept secret in order to allow the wheels of justice to turn true. The evidence may exist and it may even have been found already, but there is nothing unethical, sinister or wrong about stating the fact.

That the charges are malicious Democratic concoctions is certainly not a proven fact but an opinion, however it is not an entirely wild opinion. I will certainly acknowledge that there has been enough actions within the Trump Camp to raise at least questions, if not suspicions, but whether or not you have, a great many liberals have jumped from questions and suspicions to confident, but grossly overstated, charges, and supporters of Trump need not take some forgiving approach in considering them.

If those urging prosecution got one and only one bite at the apple, the Trump Camp would be stupid not to urge them to immediately present what evidence they appear to now have to a Grand Jury. That would be the end of it all.

With your repeated comments you appear to be determined to ignore the very real harm a "special investigation" can inflict on an administration, even if the ultimate finding is "not guilty," and keep advancing the notion that Meuller's appointment is somehow a gift to Trump and his supporters.

It shouldn't be difficult for you to imagine the harm a highly publicized and very intrusive investigation would personally cause you...even if you were 100% innocent of all charges. The cost of defense lawyers, alone, can be ruinous to folks well down the food chain from Trump, and I can't believe you might make the ridiculous argument that if someone has nothing to hide, they don't need a high priced defense lawyer.

The impact of this investigation will extend well beyond the cost of defense lawyers. White House staff that are spending hours and days dealing with requests from the Special Counsel as well as the feeding frenzies that will surely follow every leaked tidbit, will have that many hours and days less to to deal with unrelated but important matters of government. Anxiety, fear and distrust will pervade the West Wing.

There's no choice but to move forward with the investigation, and if there is something there there, the chips should fall where they may but I really wish you would put an end to the disingenuous argument that if Trump is innocent, it's no big deal, and the absurd one that Trump and his supporters should be grateful for it.

Perhaps you are trusting enough to believe that the Trump Opposition would never insist on an investigation unless they were sincerely convinced that there were valid suspicion, and would never, ever push for an investigation for no other reason than it will stymie Trump's agenda, but I find this very difficult to believe.
farmerman
 
  2  
Reply Sun 21 May, 2017 03:14 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
you seem to be wanting to arrive at a finding right now. yet you are totally evidence-free to substantiate your hypothesis.
it may be good enough for you but i think we should demand facts to support any decision, dont you?
0 Replies
 
ossobucotemp
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 May, 2017 03:46 pm
@farmerman,
Doing Monica..

I don't get it. I remember that she had bragged to friends back home that she would snag him. Like so, girl talk. No I don't have links.
She snags him and vice versa.
So what?

Have no others in the white house played around? I figure it happens. Why is that a capital sin for congress to check out? Does becoming president demand purity?
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Sun 21 May, 2017 04:26 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:
Then you believe two wrongs make a right.

Well yes and no. I do see the point of those who think that further wrongdoing only makes things even worse.

But a situation where one side gets to be above the law all the time is strongly undesirable.

In addition my sense of justice is outraged at the prospect of someone getting away with a crime and gloating about it, and then turning around and piously demanding that their opponent be punished for the same crime.

So my view is something like "Two wrongs is the least bad option."
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -3  
Reply Sun 21 May, 2017 04:28 pm
@farmerman,
farmerman wrote:
No, the actual facts are that the administration has had a number of suspicious contacts with Russians before and after the election(contacts that they initially tried to deny or then hide).

Contacts yes. Suspicious no.

There is no plausible reason to think that the contacts were illegal.

The only possible illegality here is the possibility that someone was required to register as a foreign agent and failed to do so. And it isn't cut and dried that they were really required to so register if all they were doing is colluding over the election.

That's not such a big deal. No normal prosecutor would bother to prosecute such a thing. If this witch hunt results in someone being convicted over that, I hope Trump is quick to pardon them.

There were some good things about the Bush Administration, but one of the really bad things is how Bush callously abandoned Scooter Libby, leaving him wrongfully convicted on bogus charges.


farmerman wrote:
There is NO EVIDENCE that Trump was either in collusion with the Russians or knew about these Russian contacts and lied about it. That is some of what the investigation should address.

If it is fair to comb through the life of anyone in the Trump Administration "just to see if we can find any crimes to prosecute" then let's have FBI investigations and IRS audits of all the Democrats "just to see what we can find" too. Fair is fair.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 21 May, 2017 04:51 pm
@ossobucotemp,
ossobucotemp wrote:

Doing Monica..

I don't get it. I remember that she had bragged to friends back home that she would snag him. Like so, girl talk. No I don't have links.
She snags him and vice versa.
So what?

Have no others in the white house played around? I figure it happens. Why is that a capital sin for congress to check out? Does becoming president demand purity?



Were you one to feign outrage when Trump said he could grab women by the pussy?
oralloy
 
  -3  
Reply Sun 21 May, 2017 05:27 pm
@ossobucotemp,
ossobucotemp wrote:
Doing Monica..

I don't get it. I remember that she had bragged to friends back home that she would snag him. Like so, girl talk. No I don't have links.
She snags him and vice versa.
So what?

Have no others in the white house played around? I figure it happens. Why is that a capital sin for congress to check out? Does becoming president demand purity?

The problem with Clinton was the fact that he committed a long string of felonies in order to cover it up.

It is against the law to commit felonies, even when your reason for committing them is to conceal a private sax act.


Also, there is a huge degree of hypocrisy from the supposed feminist movement.

Feminists were happy to lynch Bob Packwood over unproven allegations even though he had done more to advance the cause of women's rights than most Democrats. Then they turned around and said "boys will be boys" when the very same sort of allegations surfaced about Bill Clinton. Then they turned around again and threw a big tantrum when Trump was recorded bragging about his sexual conquests.

Clearly the feminist movement has nothing to do with women's rights. It is just another liberal construct designed to damage conservatives with false accusations.

If we ever get to the point where Leftist movements can be outlawed in America, the feminist movement needs to be one of the first to go.
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 May, 2017 05:41 pm
Bill Clinton's behavior was indefensible. He had sex with a subordinate (something that would get me fired) in the Oval Office, and then lied about it.

Bill Clinton deserved to be impeached. Pretending that he didnt bring it upon himself is ridiculous. I wonder how this relates to Trump's current problems...
gungasnake
 
  -3  
Reply Sun 21 May, 2017 05:46 pm
@maxdancona,
Quote:
There is a general consensus that Russia meddled in the US election.


Only amongst ignorant people...
gungasnake
 
  -3  
Reply Sun 21 May, 2017 05:54 pm
@oralloy,
Quote:
maxdancona wrote:
You aren't being logical Oralloy.

Sure I am. It is perfectly reasonable to prosecute you guys when you commit crimes.


They may end up having to either build some colossal new demoperv prison or empty out all of America's normal prisons for demopervs. Either that or simply wall off some section of the Grand Canyon on two sides and heave the demopervs in. They could put stainless steel bars 4 inches apart on the bottom of the thing so that the Colorado River could still flow without letting any of the demopervs loose

https://www.infowars.com/live-anthony-weiner-pizzagate-domino-falls-admits-preying-on-child/
gungasnake
 
  -3  
Reply Sun 21 May, 2017 05:56 pm
@oralloy,
Quote:
Come now. You guys don't care about Russia.


Demopervs Picked up on this Russophobia thing after Russia reverted to its normal condition as a Christian nation under Putin.
Demopervs hate Christianity and Christians.
farmerman
 
  3  
Reply Sun 21 May, 2017 06:26 pm
@gungasnake,
well we arent a Christian nation. Your Putin boot- licking is kinda lame.
Just because theyre "christian" they still believe in spying, subterfuge, torture, and murder, just like us.
0 Replies
 
ossobucotemp
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 May, 2017 08:19 pm
@McGentrix,
Not especially, though I probably wasn't thrilled to read that.. I don't know busy boy Trump's sexual habits.

Re Bill Clinton, it does seem there was some there, there, but I didn't take the particular Monica situation as dastardly.
McGentrix
 
  -4  
Reply Sun 21 May, 2017 09:05 pm
@ossobucotemp,
ossobucotemp wrote:

Not especially, though I probably wasn't thrilled to read that.. I don't know busy boy Trump's sexual habits.

Re Bill Clinton, it does seem there was some there, there, but I didn't take the particular Monica situation as dastardly.


Just curious who is offended by Trump talking about grabbing pussy and not so much by Clinton sticking cigars in there.
 

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