David Horowitz: Democrats are the party of hate

@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

But the fact that Black kids are more likely to end up dead after an encounter with police than White kids is a statistical fact.

Do these statistics filter out kids who end up killed because they were trying to murder the police officer?

In other words, are these statistics for innocent kids?

If yes, I am skeptical and would be interested in hearing more about these statistics.

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@oralloy,

Quote:

Do these statistics filter out kids who end up killed because they were trying to murder the police officer?

In other words, are these statistics for innocent kids?

If yes, I am skeptical and would be interested in hearing more about these statistics.

Yes, that is a good question. Unfortunately the liberal side, and the conservative side seem to interpret the statistics differently. I don't know of any scientifically foolproof way to filter for only innocent kids... this is likely an impossible statistic to measure unequivocally.

That is why I posed the question in a way to talk about the underlying moral issue. Unfortunately you can look up both sides of the story and see how each side is using statistics.

I think it is a good thing to understand both sides of the argument. My goal is to understand where we agree rather than just quibble over the disagreement.

To me, if innocent Black kids are more likely to be shot because of the color of their skin, this is a very serious injustice. There is a question of whether the statistics bear this out or not (and the different sides of the political divide have different interpretations). But if you could show unequivocally that this is the case, it would be a very big deal to me (and actually, it is a very big deal to me).

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@maxdancona,

It is a huge Injustice if innocent black kids (or any kids) end up dead at the hands of law enforcement. I can't fathom any reasonable person disagreeing with that statement.

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@Finn dAbuzz,

Finn dAbuzz wrote:

Show me someone who told his or her kids to resist and insult police and I will show you an idiot and a terrible parent.

I hope Max is noticing that you and I disagree on this.

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@maxdancona,

Arbitrary? No.

Why do you bring up white and Protestant as your definition of American? My wife's great grandmother came from Poland when she was 16 with absolutely nothing other than the desire to be an American. Not a Polish American. Just an American. My great, great, great grandfather came to America as a trader and fell in love with the country. I am a mutt of many different regions, including a wee bit of African, and I am not a Protestant and neither is my wife yet we both call ourselves American. None of my friends are hyphenated Americans. They are all just Americans. Each proud of their family and their heritage.

If the country is to ever be rid of racism and bigotry, we have to start by all being American. No one has give up their heritage, religion, or anything else. But, you have to think of yourself as an American first. Not Jewish, American. Not Hispanic, American. Not a Muslim, an American.

Why do you find is this to be such a foul idea? Your problem is that you see too many groups and not enough Americans.

And seriously, "Asian American"? Why not call them orientals or something. They aren't "Asian" and you shouldn't refer to them as such. That's racist.

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@tibbleinparadise,

tibbleinparadise wrote:

It is a huge Injustice if innocent black kids (or any kids) end up dead at the hands of law enforcement. I can't fathom any reasonable person disagreeing with that statement.

Of course. There's a whole lot being said in this thread about cops and blacks. I'll throw in a few comments, too.

1. The nature of the cop job always attracts a certain number of bullies, sadists, and insecure people inclined to abuse their power. This is a systemic problem that probably can't be totally eliminated, especially in light of the "code of silence" that cops try to honor amongst themselves. They don't want to "rat out" their fellows cops, so many abuses go unreported. And of course those of like mind will try to associate with each other so they can abuse citizens as a team. There are, and always will be, "bad cops." They are a threat to every citizen: black, white, brown, yellow, red, whatever.

2. Although it's impossible to determine who's "innocent," the stats I've seen indicate that, on a per/encounter basis, unarmed whites are more likely to be killed by cops than unarmed blacks.

3. There are some "bad cops" who tend to be racist, and who take special joy in abusing blacks. Some enjoy abusing women more than men. Some like to pick on kids. And so on. But in every case, the poor are most vulnerable. Rich people driving Cadillacs are more likely to have lawyers, the financial means, and knowledge of their rights which will allow/motivate them to strike back; and cops will not generally **** with them due to fear of retaliation--it's the general nature of a bully, ya know?

4. I don't see this as a racial issue, even though there are probably some "bad cops" who are especially prone to abuse blacks. The problem goes far deeper than that, and if you try to make it an issue about skin color, then you miss the real heart of the problem.

1 Reply

@layman,

All excellent points, I agree your sentiments.

Just today I went on a bender, watching YouTube videos of various law enforcement completely abusing their power for no other reason than to seemingly....bully people. There are hundreds of these videos. It's no wonder so many people just don't trust the police.

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@tibbleinparadise,

Quote:

Just today I went on a bender, watching YouTube videos of various law enforcement completely abusing their power for no other reason than to seemingly....bully people. There are hundreds of these videos. It's no wonder so many people just don't trust the police.

Its Unamerican to point stuff like this out. Rolling Eyes

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@RABEL222,

'Merica!!!

In other news, I noticed today that a new neighbor down the road has installed gigantic American and Confederate flags in the back of his giant truck. Through his exercise of free speech (which I applaud) I now know he's probably a really delightful fellow.

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@McGentrix,

Quote:

If the country is to ever be rid of racism and bigotry, we have to start by all being American. No one has give up their heritage, religion, or anything else. But, you have to think of yourself as an American first. Not Jewish, American. Not Hispanic, American. Not a Muslim, an American.

Everybody else in the picture might be able to deal with that, but muslims cannot and will never live with that. For TR's thinking to ever prevail on that one, we need to ban the practice of islam in America.

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@McGentrix,

McGentrix wrote:

Finn dAbuzz wrote:

Show me someone who told his or her kids to resist and insult police and I will show you an idiot and a terrible parent.

I hope Max is noticing that you and I disagree on this.

McGentrix, Of course I notice. I enjoy discussing these topics with both you and Finn. I have no problem with either of you.

I am pushing all sides to engage in less mud slinging and more discussion, and I strongly prefer exploring an issue to find the line where we disagree than these empty attacks on both.

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@McGentrix,

Quote:

Why do you bring up white and Protestant as your definition of American?

I am happy to accept Americans from all ethnic groups as Americans, and I am happy for them to figure out how to fit their own cultural traits into the American culture. This has happened with Italian Americans (there are parts of Boston that still speak Italian), and Jewish American (there is an area near Boston that has a ceremonial enclosure to help residents keep the Sabbath) and Hispanic Americans (people around love papusas and Salsa Dancing is very popular).

Why White and Protestant? Because the people who want a more narrow view of what it means to be American; which excludes mosques, and speaking Spanish as "American", are historically White and Protestant.

I am not promoting the White and Protestant dominant culture. I am describing it.

I don't know if you know this, my son is an Army sniper. When he went through boot camp, I became part of a community of Army parents. Let me tell you this, Army parents tend to be a very conservative group... I was, shall we say, an outsider.

This group was decidedly White and Protestant. And, they shared the opinion, sometimes openly, that they were the real Americans. They talked about Jesus. They talked about guns. They talked about freedom. There was a African American family who, not too surprisingly was also Protestant and had the same cultural and political views as the rest of the group.

This was one of the few times that I felt compelled to keep my mouth shut. I was there for my son and having the support of people who are going through the same difficult process was rather important. I do enjoy being around other Army families, I am not really able to be myself in this group. Of course, I have no doubt that they are just as American as I am, and I have respect that they are giving to America in a way that many families don't understand.

This is the historically dominant culture in America. And, this is changing.

I came back to the Boston area where we Speak Spanish (or Spanglish) and hear many different languages from Haitian Creole to Arabic. I can dance Salsa here, get an Arepa for breakfast with Cuban coffee as I walk by the neighborhood mosque.

This is what being American means to me. I am OK with my support group of Army families. I am OK with my diverse group of multicultural friends.

When I hear people telling me to Speak English... it really pisses me off.

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@maxdancona,

I recall my mom telling me that she hd to bet up some kid who was picking on my moms youngest sister (there are 9 kids inmy moms family).My aunt (moms youngest sister) was being picked on for speaking POLISH in AMerica. Nothing really changes among the fringe of "Freedomists". They never realize that they are often the antithesis of what the seem to preach.
NOWHAM SAYN??

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@maxdancona,

whats funny is that VICELAND TV keeps subtitles on the comedy show of Desus and Mero. Yet theyre speaking English.

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@maxdancona,

97 years ago.

A lot has changed since then.

Both of my maternal grandparents came to the US from Europe. My paternal side of the family has been around since pre-revolutionary days so I'm a perfect mix.

I'm all for immigration. It's one of the things that has made this country great and there's no reason why those who come here should throw their cultures away once they land on American soil.

I don't think today's immigrants are as a whole resistant to assimilation and I suspect many would be more assimilated if white liberals didn't encourage them to take refuge in their cultures. No immigrant child is done a favor by making it easier for him or her to not learn English.

When I see members of La Raza marching through the streets carrying Mexican flags, my first instinct is to find a way to send them back to Mexico.

Cesar Chavez had this to say on the subject:

Quote:

I hear more and more Mexicans talking about la raza—to build up their pride. Some people don’t look at it as racism, but when you say ‘la raza,’ you are saying an anti-gringo thing, and it won’t stop there. Today it’s anti-gringo, tomorrow it will be anti-Negro. We had a stupid guy who just wanted to play politics with the union, and he began to whip up La Raza against the white volunteers, and even had some of the farm workers and the pickets and the organizers hung up on la raza.

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@Finn dAbuzz,

Quote:

I don't think today's immigrants are as a whole resistant to assimilation and I suspect many would be more assimilated if white liberals didn't encourage them to take refuge in their cultures. No immigrant child is done a favor by making it easier for him or her to not learn English.

When I see members of La Raza marching through the streets carrying Mexican flags, my first instinct is to find a way to send them back to Mexico.

First of all, the English myth. I do not know of a single immigrant, or a single "white liberal" who isn't trying to make it easier for children to learn English. Children who are born here all learn English. There is an challenge with children who come here as teens, and some difference of opinion on immersion vs dual-classrooms. But, there is no one I know of without the end goal of ensuring all children master English.

Now the flag issue. I get that this upsets you, and I am sorry. But I don't think that if I wave a Mexican flag, or an Italian Flag, or an Irish Flag, or an Israeli Flag it makes me any less of an American.

Does the Italian flag bother you as much as the Mexican Flag?

A while ago I lived in Nonantum, a neighborhood in Newton MA (just west of Boston) that is unapologetically Italian. In the summer, they would literally paint the yellow lines in the middle of the main street in the colors of the Italian flag. Would this bother you.

Many Italian Americans say "I am Italian. I am American. And, I am proud".

In Boston proper there is a Saint Patrick's Day parade every year that is put on by veterans groups. It usually features all of the City Officials (as of late there has been some controversy over gay groups marching). It prominently features Irish flags, and costumes and imagery. Many veterans are Irish.

They say "I am Irish. I am American and I am proud.".

I strongly object to the idea that you can't be both American and Jewish, Or American and Irish, or American and Italian or American and Mexican.

It seems like everyone now accepts Irish heritage and Italian heritage as a normal parts of American heritage. I wasn't always that way.

1 Reply

@Finn dAbuzz,

I just looked up your Cesar Chavez quote. It is rather disingenuous, and taken out of context. He was talking about a real backlash happening out of anger in the Chicano community at the time, not about the organization.

The fact is there has been quite a bit of collaboration between NCLR (National Council of La Raza) and the NAACP. They are very similar civil rights groups with common interests.

The actual quote

Quote:

Today it’s anti-gringo, tomorrow it will be anti-Negro, and the day after it will be anti-Filipino, anti-Puerto Rican. And then it will be anti-poor-Mexican, and anti-darker-skinned Mexican. … La raza is a very dangerous concept. I speak very strongly against it among the chicanos.”

I don't agree with everything that Chavez said... but at least get his quotes correctly.

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@maxdancona,

Take it up with wikipedia - that's where I got the quote and they have a citation for it.

La Raza grew from the la raza movement.

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@maxdancona,

You base a lot of your opinions on people you know. That's fine, but unless you know millions it's not very authoritative.

If Mexican-American immigrants want to wave the Mexican flag on Cinco De Mayo that's fine and it's similar to what you describe in Boston. La Raza marches are something different and please don't try and suggest they are not.

1 Reply

@Finn dAbuzz,

Quote:

La Raza marches are something different and please don't try and suggest they are not.

I have participated in such marches. I have taken my kids. What do you know about them?

NCLR (colloquially known as "La Raza") is a civil rights organization. They are fairly moderate. They give out scholarships. They organize pro-immigrant marches... but even on immigration they are moderate (left of center, but moderate).

I assume you agree that Americans are free to go to a march if we want to.... La Raza marches are actually kind of fun, and I think they are effective at energizing voters.

La Raza marches to me are probably the same as NRA marches are to other Americans. I am just as American as they are... and that is my point.

For the record, I am racially and ethnically as White as they come, mostly Northern European with one branch that is Jewish (via Italy). My kids are Hispanic-American, and identify as such.

1 Reply

David Horowitz: Democrats are the party of hate

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