David Horowitz: Democrats are the party of hate

@Finn dAbuzz,

Finn dAbuzz wrote:

If you "stand up" to a fellow liberal here, you're not doing me any favor.

I've disagreed with conservatives in this forum, but I don't feel it's my job to police the content of "conservative" members. They get plenty of feedback from liberals.

The nonsense gunga just posted is clearly that and not worth any additional comment.

It bothers me a little when I feel that you are defending, or even encouraging them. You are right, you have no responsibility to police them. But it would make this place a little more rational if there were both liberals and conservatives who stood up to their own in favor of rational discussion.

I guess this is nothing more than a wish....

1 Reply

@maxdancona,

Quote:

It bothers me a little when I feel that you are defending, or even encouraging them.

Sorry but you need to provide examples.

If you mean layman's comments, the person behind the persona is far more intelligent and knowledgeable than his affected delivery would suggest. I would prefer that he dump the schtick, but that's his call. I often agree with the meat of his comments.

Nothing you or I do is going to change the tenor of this forum. It is what it is.

Within the last 20 minutes I found two gratuitous insults direct at me. I didn't see you leaping to my defense, but I don't expect anyone to do so.
Recently blatham did (although he subsequently backed off) and I thanked him.

1 Reply

@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

Oralloy, you didn't answer my question.

I believe I did.

It is not clear whether or not you are referring to innocent black kids gunned down by criminals, or innocent black kids gunned down by police officers.

If you are asking about innocent black kids gunned down by criminals, my answer can be found in this block of text:

"I believe that reducing and eliminating inner city poverty will reduce the crime rates in these areas. I also believe that this is the only thing that will reduce crime rates in these areas. And I support efforts to do that.

I am not sure that I feel "outrage" over these deaths. Outrage is a pretty strong emotion. But I do support what I believe are the only policies that will reduce the deaths."

If you are asking about innocent black kids gunned down by police officers, my answer can be found in this block of text:

"if I believed that there were a large number of cases of police shooting innocent people (regardless of skin color), I would be outraged and want measures taken to stop it from happening anymore."

1 Reply

@Finn dAbuzz,

Quote:

Nothing you or I do is going to change the tenor of this forum. It is what it is.

This is the interesting question. It seems to me that there is a critical mass where when there is enough liberals and conservatives pushing back on their own sides, the forum will change for the better.

This is a mud slinging thread, there is no question.

1 Reply

@oralloy,

Quote:

"if I believed that there were a large number of cases of police shooting innocent people (regardless of skin color), I would be outraged and want measures taken to stop it from happening anymore."

I suppose that is a half answer to my question...

You are ignoring the important part of the question though... I asked very specifically. I want to know if the facts showed that innocent Black Kids were far more likely to be killed by police than innocent White Kids, would this make a difference on how you felt about this issue?

You have every right to disagree with me about the facts. But you should at least understand why many of us are so outraged about this.

1 Reply

@maxdancona,

Quote:

It seems to me that there is a critical mass where when there is enough liberals and conservatives pushing back on their own sides, the forum will change for the better.

Wishful thinking but in the meantime, practice what you preach.

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@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

if the facts showed that innocent Black Kids were far more likely to be killed by police than innocent White Kids, would this make a difference on how you felt about this issue?

Well, I would see that disparity as a vital clue in determining what is going wrong, and what policies need to be fixed to prevent it from happening in the future.

I don't know that I would feel any "more" outraged though. Although I'd be plenty outraged just from a belief that innocent kids were being killed in large numbers.

1 Reply

@oralloy,

Quote:

if the facts showed that innocent Black Kids were far more likely to be killed by police than innocent White Kids, would this make a difference on how you felt about this issue?

What about black kids being far more likely (Because they live in places like Washington D.C.) than white kids to be snatched by democrat perverts, hauled off to a demoperv pizza/pingpong emporium of some sort, raped, sodomized, tortured, and sacrificed to pagan gods and goddesses in sadistic rituals? Do any libtards ever get excited about that sort of thing??

http://www.cnn.com/2017/03/24/us/missing-black-girls-washington-dc/

http://hollywoodlife.com/2017/03/24/missing-dc-girls-teens-disappeared-washington-2017-celebrity-tweets/

0 Replies

@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

Finn dAbuzz wrote:

Well fine. By your definition I don't think White Nationalism is all that horrible as long as the white's who abide by it don't attempt to take anything from non-whites.

Every group in this nation exaggerates their grievances.

I value multiculturalism, there is a natural tension between White Nationalism and multiculturalism. "Horrible" is a subjective term. I am certainly work very hard to support multiculturalism; immigration, LGBT rights and acceptance of Islam are important issues.

I am happy to state my opinions, and back them with facts when I can. At the bottom of these big issue there are always value judgments and values aren't facts.

This is a mud-slinging thread.... it was clearly designed as such from the OP. I suppose that seeking a rational discussion in a mud-slinging thread is unreasonable.

That being said, there are areas where liberals and conservatives can agree. I think it is important to be able to find areas where I agree with conservatives. There are clear areas where I see the facts agree with Conservatives... I am proud of this. I have stood up to Edgar, and EhBeth and Setanta, and Izzy when I saw that they were being excessive and ridiculous.

It is very easy for conservatives to stand up to liberals, or for liberal to stand up to conservatives. This is the nature of things... it isn't surprising or honorable.

I would like to see a conservative here who is willing stand up to another conservative when they are being excessive, or ridiculous. I haven't seen any conservative here who is willing to cross this line.

Had to read all the way back to here and now I can see that it's just a bunch of bullshit.

I have stood up and will stand up to all of the conservatives here when I disagree with them just as I do with the liberals and the non-political.

Later in this thread you stated "the culture we are talking about is Northern European." Which Northern European culture are you talking about? Norwegian? Swedish? Danish? German? Polish? English? Scot? Irish? Norse? Viking? Saxon? French?

You can't come out with a statement about multiculturalism and drop something like that. It's like calling Japanese "Asian" when referring to their culture. Layman is absolutely correct in his statement "Welcome to the world." Because that is the way it is. There is no other country in the world that has the mixing of cultures like America has. Therefore, there is no comparing it to other countries to try to demonstrate how America works in comparison.

Take a look at Baldimo as an example. (Sorry for calling you out like that) He is constantly being called a racist or bigot by one liberal or another here for his views. Yet if you've paid any attention at all to his posts you'd understand that to be just patently false. Not just false, but also really, REALLY stupid.

You're pipe dream of true multiculturalism will never come to fruition because people are inherently tribal. It's how we have evolved and how our minds work. If there ever is a time of true multiculturalism it will only be because people have cross bred so much that no single culture otherwise exists. Even then, there will be animosity between fat people and skinny people. Rich people and poor people. men with hairy toes and men without hairy toes. There will ALWAYS be something that separates people.

In your head to head with Oralloy you post this:

Quote:

If this were the case, and these facts were shown to be incontrovertibly true, would you then change your mind? Would you be outraged if you were shown facts that convinced you that innocent Black kids were being killed at a far greater rate than innocent White kids?

I am willing to answer the opposite question. If there are incontrovertible facts shown to me that Black kids are equally likely to be shot as White kids given the same circumstances... then I would absolutely change my mind based on the facts and agree that the racial uproar was unjustified.

If you take color out of the question and just say "Would you be outraged if you were shown facts that convinced you that innocent kids were being killed?" what do you suppose the answer would be? Why do you feel race plays a more important factor in kids being killed more than any other factor like poverty, family structure, education, drugs or neighborhood?

Oralloy answered that accordingly.

Moving on, you ask

Quote:

I really wish that there were a conservative who could fill this void. It is not for me to say (because as a liberal I am not in a position to judge which thread is crossing the line, although this seems to me that it might be a good one). It would be nice to see a conservative with independent thought... any thread would be fine.

I think Finn answered perfectly

"Finn dAbuzz" wrote:

I've disagreed with conservatives in this forum, but I don't feel it's my job to police the content of "conservative" members. They get plenty of feedback from liberals.

You first talk about how America is not really multicultural enough but then call for animosity within a tribe... That we have to deal with the daily diatribe of liberal guilt, angst, lies and bullshit here is more than enough for the 5 or 6 conservative posters here. As I look through Blatham's daily blog of BS, I do not see many posts from you complaining about his non-stop scurrilous activity against half of the American population. He's not even an American yet he is continuously criticizing what he sees and hardly a peep from a single liberal on A2K.

I've appreciated our back and forth on A2K, you generally seem to be a moderate liberal and your point of view is a good voice to have on A2K. But, please stop trying to force a point of view that isn't needed.

2 Replies

@McGentrix,

You seem to be switching wildly between two unrelated arguments. I wish you would separate them. I am going to the issue that is more interesting to me (I will respond to the other later if you really want...).

There is a big issue here. How do you define American "Culture"? If you see American culture as a mixture of heritage that has grown together around a common set of values; life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness -- then Muslims, and Jews and African Americans, and people with Mexican roots, and Asian Americans all have equal part in American and equal voice in what it means to be an American.

This is my position. And in my opinion the rhetoric coming from the Trump phenomenon challenges this inclusive view of what it means to be American.

The alternate view is that American Culture belongs to a certain narrow set of people who speak English, go to Church rather than Mosque, don't wear turbans or worry about equality.

This view view of a narrow American culture is without question predominantly White and Protestant (which is not surprising given our history).

The demographics are inarguable facts. The history is clear. And the narrative is clear, non-white ethnic groups from Muslims to Blacks to Hispanic are a threat to the real America.

I would like to know, McGentrix, how you define what it means to be American? Do you accept that Obama is American? Do you accept that Janet Murguía (who is President of La Raza) is American and represents thousands of American voices? Do you accept that Keith Ellison is an American?

If you accept the principle that a Muslim American, like Keith Ellison is just as much a part of the American culture as Donald Trump or you or Oralloy or any other American, than I have no quarrel with you.

I am troubled by the idea that some ideas or voices or people or religions are being portrayed as less American. The attacks on Muslim Americans on this very thread are an example of this.

1 Reply

@McGentrix,

Quote:

If you take color out of the question and just say "Would you be outraged if you were shown facts that convinced you that innocent kids were being killed?" what do you suppose the answer would be? Why do you feel race plays a more important factor in kids being killed more than any other factor like poverty, family structure, education, drugs or neighborhood?

Let me answer this specifically. It is a very important point.

If the facts show that innocent Black kids are being at a far greater rate than innocent White kids, than you can't take "color" out of the question. The issue here is whether Black kids are more likely to be killed because they are Black.

To me this is a very important issue. I am White. I raised two kids who are brown. Try to explain to a 13 year old kid that you care about why they are being followed around in stores when their White friends aren't.

Do you know what "the talk" is? That is when parents have to sit down with their kid and explain that the color of their skin makes them a threat to some police officers and that they have to accept this and act accordingly. My parents never had to have this talk with me. But the fact that Black kids are more likely to end up dead after an encounter with police than White kids is a statistical fact.

And we, as parents, have to adapt to this reality. To say that this has nothing to do with "color" is very frustrating.

3 Replies

@maxdancona,

I can answer that for you quick and easy.

Is the person you are referring to putting America first, or their particular thing.

Do the mosque goers consider themselves Americans or Muslims?
Does Janet Murguia consider herself American or Mexican?
Does Keith Ellison consider himself an American or a Democrat or a Muslim?

I do not see Muslim-Americans. I either see Americans that follow the Islamic religion or I see Muslims living in America. 2 groups of people. What do you see?

If you consider your self an American, then there is no need for a prefix.

What you should be concerned about is that so many groups living in America want to be something else and not American.

1 Reply

@maxdancona,

No, it's not important. You want to take everything away from the situation and water it down to race and I'm telling you that you can't do that. Kids are much more than a product of their race. White kids, brown kids, red kids, yellow kids, it doesn't matter. Raise them in abject poverty without proper family support and send them to failing schools dominated by gangs and drug users/pushers and the race of that kid isn't going to matter much.

0 Replies

Oh, and as far as "the talk" goes? I had that with my kids because the Police are not the same police we grew up with. I had to tell them that the police presume you are guilty and will treat you as such. They will lie and cheat and steal from you and then take your rights away from you. Don't talk to the police and don't call the police unless you have absolutely no other choice.

It's hardly a minority thing anymore.

1 Reply

@maxdancona,

Do you acknowledge that there are factors beyond police racism that contribute to the statistic you rely upon?

1 Reply

@McGentrix,

Show me someone who told his or her kids to resist and insult police and I will show you an idiot and a terrible parent.

1 Reply

@McGentrix,

Quote:

If you consider your self an American, then there is no need for a prefix.

It seems like you are making an arbitrary judgement McGentrix. Janet Murguia considers herself American AND she considers herself Hispanic (I didn't find a record of her hyphenating). She is both. Keith Ellison considers himself American AND he considers himself Muslim-American. He is both.

Our history is full of people who consider themselves Jewish-American, and Irish-American. I am going to bet that no one here, not even Gunga, has a problem with a Jewish American and Italian-Americans being American. And there are Asian Americans and Native Americans. Surely you will agree that Native Americans have every right to be both Native and American.

Quote:

What you should be concerned about is that so many groups living in America want to be something else and not American.

You have this all wrong. There are so many groups living in America who want to be American. These groups aren't all going to become White and Protestant. They aren't all going to start line dancing, or eating mayonnaise. They aren't going to stop keeping the Sabbath or Speaking Italian or going to mosque and speaking Arabic.

What concerns me is that some people want to exclude so many groups living in America from being American.

2 Replies

@Finn dAbuzz,

Yes. I do.

0 Replies

@maxdancona,

Quote:

What concerns me is that some people want to exclude so many groups living in America from being American.

You're referring to a very small minority.

Having said this, there are a great many people who resent immigrants who resist assimilation.

When I see a march of demonstrators waving Mexican flags I don't think "How nice, my fellow Americans wish to make their opinions known"

1 Reply

@Finn dAbuzz,

Quote:

You're referring to a very small minority.

Having said this, there are a great many people who resent immigrants who resist assimilation.

Some people have always resented immigrants who "resist assimilation". In the 1920s there was debate over laws that were specifically, apologetically, designed to protect the racial superiority of White people in the United States. There are US Senators who said that on the floor of Congress. They passed quotas (that were very thinly disguised racial quotas) and they passed a bill called the "Asian Exclusion Act".

Immigrants, in this case Asians and Italians and Irish Catholics, were said to "resist assimilation".

Now racism has fallen out of favor, but this rhetoric is still here.

1 Reply

David Horowitz: Democrats are the party of hate

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