Sickening

Cycloptichorn wrote:

Don't be retarded, Bill.

3000 people dying is a huge deal; but 30k die every year in car accidents, and you don't see us getting all up in arms about it.

over 100k due to smoking per year
another 250k due to heart disease.

If you're so quick to minimize loss of life - after all, 30K die every year in car accidents, 100K+ smoking, 250K+ heart disease, - why is it such a big deal for you that the US has lost 1,000+ lives fighting the insurgency in Iraq?

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First the present business.

I am against terrorism. I am against Bush. The terrorists are good for Bush (politically). Likewise Bush is good for the terrorists. I don't want to have anything to do with either side.

Second, the more interesting discussion.

Bill I read your Blair speech. I will try to write a thoughtful response tonight.

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OCCOM BILL wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:
All this does is add legitimacy to what was once merely a nuisiance....

Cycloptichorn
And I thought you had previously reached your personal plateau for making idiotic statements. Those 3,000 people would have been 3 million if Bin Ladin could have managed it.

Einherjar When did I endorse terrorism?

I'm reffering off course to your machiavellian approach to foreign policy. I remember you advocating vaporising tora bora with the intent of intimidating possible oposition. That is, you wanted to get at a political objective (making "rouge states" give up WMD programmes and stop aiding and or sheltering terrorists) by frightening people with non discriminatory use of force (proving your wilingness to inflict mass casualties by vaporising tora bora). I think that amounts to terrorism.

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Quote:

If you're so quick to minimize loss of life - after all, 30K die every year in car accidents, 100K+ smoking, 250K+ heart disease, - why is it such a big deal for you that the US has lost 1,000+ lives fighting the insurgency in Iraq?

Because,

Those were completely avoidable casualties.

They were killed in my name for a cause I am firmly against.

Because they've managed to kill (or at least contributed to the situation significantly) about 100k Iraqis in the process. Which isn't cool.

Because we are only making terrorism worse by stirring up a hornet's nest, which leads to more deaths....

I'm not minimizing the loss of life, at all; just pointing out that 3k people dying is hardly significant compared to the hundreds of thousands that die from preventable causes and reasons every year.

I'm minimizing the importance of terrorism, not life.... terrorism has been co-opted for political gain by the 'leaders' of our country.

Cycloptichorn

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Quote:

People are scared of terrorism because it's flashy, but it's hardly the only problem we face as a society, and not even the major killer of Americans, by far.... a hundred times as many people have died in the last ten years from various controlable, avoidable domestic reasons as have from terrorism.

Cycloptichorn- Yes, these are certainly problems, but IMO you are comparing apples with oranges.

Stopping smoking, and making lifestyle changes to prevent heart disease are a personal responsibility. Terrorism is foisted upon innocent people.

If your entire family were killed by terrorists, could you really think, "Oh well, but a lot more people than my family died of heart attacks in my neighborhood? Think about that!

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"Vaporizing Tora Bora" would hardly qualify as terrorism. The objective would not be to frighten them; it would be to decimate the enemy troops -- something that is clearly NOT terrorism. An overwhelming show of force is a military tactic, not a brand of terrorism.

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Ticomaya wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:
3000 people dying is a huge deal

If you're so quick to minimize loss of life - after all, 30K die every year in car accidents, 100K+ smoking, 250K+ heart disease, - why is it such a big deal for you that the US has lost 1,000+ lives fighting the insurgency in Iraq?

Nice try Tico, but I think Cyclo already stated that 3000 people dying is important. It just isn't the only important issue in front of us.

Why not respond to Cyclo's comments?

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never mind

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Ticomaya wrote:

"Vaporizing Tora Bora" would hardly qualify as terrorism. The objective would not be to frighten them; it would be to decimate the enemy troops -- something that is clearly NOT terrorism. An overwhelming show of force is a military tactic, not a brand of terrorism.

Terrorism is a military tactic. That's why we called it an act of war.

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Phoenix32890 wrote:

Terrorism is foisted upon innocent people.

So is drunk driving. Which President Bush was convicted of himself....

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Quote:

So is drunk driving.

Sadly, true. And that is why there are laws against it!

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Ticomaya wrote:

"Vaporizing Tora Bora" would hardly qualify as terrorism. The objective would not be to frighten them; it would be to decimate the enemy troops -- something that is clearly NOT terrorism. An overwhelming show of force is a military tactic, not a brand of terrorism.

The objective, as stated by OCCOM was to demonstrate wilingness to inflict mass casualties using WMD's in inhabited areas, in order to make treaths to do the same to rouge states, if they did not comply with certain demands, credible.

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FreeDuck wrote:

Well, ok, I'll say it. I'm for terrorism. That's right I favor it. It's very economical with a minimum amount of casualties for the perpetrating party. Look at all the bang you get for your buck!

Is Mays Gilliam for Cancer or against it?
Mays Gilliam: He's for cancer!

Fair enough Einherjar... though I thought of Tora Bora as quite disciminatory. :wink:

Cyclops, as usual, I can tell you didn't bother to read back very far or do any research before showing up to show off your lack of comprehension. I remember an engineering teacher who used to tell a tale about a farmer who used to fill his gas tank with a cigarette hanging out of his mouth. He didn't see any danger because he "never blowed hisself up yet."

Keep peddling your nuisance theory... perhaps when an H-Bomb eliminates all traces of the island of Manhattan you'll recognize the danger.

Ebrown, I'm looking forward to reading your thoughts.

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BBB
I don't have time read all of this thread, but I do not appreciate the extreme fringes of either the right or the left. However, I do admit their right to make fools of themselves.

The extreme fringes do a lot of harm and make it more difficult to effect positive change in people's lives and to improve the general welfare of this country. The fact that people move to the fringes demonstrates their failure of rational thinking and leadership skills. They are generally losers in many respects of their lives and this often leads to violence.

Effective leadership is hard work, and I find most fringers to be profoundly immature and intellectually lazy. I think the extreme fringes of the right and of the left are often more interested in getting attention for themselves than they are for achieving credible goals.

BBB

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Quote:

Cycloptichorn- Yes, these are certainly problems, but IMO you are comparing apples with oranges.

Stopping smoking, and making lifestyle changes to prevent heart disease are a personal responsibility. Terrorism is foisted upon innocent people.

If your entire family were killed by terrorists, could you really think, "Oh well, but a lot more people than my family died of heart attacks in my neighborhood? Think about that!

I think about it every f*cking day. My uncle was killed in the WTC attacks and my cousin barely made it out alive.

When I look at it objectively, however, I've lost one relative to terrorism and five to heart disease or cancer brought on by smoking in the last four-odd years. It's been somewhat tough around the house.

This brings me back to the original point: there's a difference between being wary about something happening to you, and being afraid of it. Fear is the mind-killer; it removes logic from the process of judgement and control.

I don't think a single day has gone by, or will, when I think of terrorism and my Uncle. But I'm not afraid of it. You can say 'apples and oranges' all you want, but the holes in my family don't fill themselves, no matter what term you put on them.

Cycloptichorn

p.s. this isn't some sort of sob story by me; I made my peace with what went on a long time ago and don't really want to talk about it.

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Phoenix32890 wrote:

Quote:
So is drunk driving.

Sadly, true. And that is why there are laws against it!

Yes. There are laws against flying airplanes into buildings and laws against supporting people who fly airplanes into buildings.

Why does the one arouse your ire more than the other?

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Cycloptichorn wrote:

...

I'm not minimizing the loss of life, at all; just pointing out that 3k people dying is hardly significant compared to the hundreds of thousands that die from preventable causes and reasons every year.

...

MerlinsGodson wrote:

Nice try Tico, but I think Cyclo already stated that 3000 people dying is important. It just isn't the only important issue in front of us.

Why not respond to Cyclo's comments?

The clear inference from her post is "you don't see us getting all up in arms about" 30K dead from traffic accidents, so why get up in arms about 3K dead from 9/11?. An inference supported by her above comment.

Apparently she believes terrorist attacks are unavoidable events - certainly not preventable. Some of us believe action can be taken to minimize the occurrence of terrorist attacks. You disagree with the way we're going about doing it, but my point is if you minimize the significance of 3K dead from 9/11, you must also minimize the significance of a mere 1K+ soldiers dead in Iraq.

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MerlinsGodson wrote:

Phoenix32890 wrote:
Quote:
So is drunk driving.

Sadly, true. And that is why there are laws against it!

Yes. There are laws against flying airplanes into buildings and laws against supporting people who fly airplanes into buildings.

Why does the one arouse your ire more than the other?

Could you translate that for me?

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Cycloptichorn- I regret that I unknowingly hit a personal nerve. I had no idea. I am very sorry.

I am not afraid of terrorism. I am wary, and believe that the government needs to do all that it can to prevent it from happening on our shores, and proliferating. I also don't want to see terrorist activity affect the lives of the young people just starting out in life now.

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Ticomaya wrote:

MerlinsGodson wrote:
Phoenix32890 wrote:
Quote:
So is drunk driving.

Sadly, true. And that is why there are laws against it!

Yes. There are laws against flying airplanes into buildings and laws against supporting people who fly airplanes into buildings.

Why does the one arouse your ire more than the other?

Could you translate that for me?

[liberal translation] why haven't we gone after Saudi Arabia since they supplid the bombers? Instead we blew up Iraq and Afghanistan because they supported the bombers. Bush sucks and is a moron.[/liberal translation]

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