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Sickening

 
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Nov, 2004 04:59 pm
Quote:
We can tighten the borders but there is no way we can secure them completely. Metal detectors and air marshals and airport security is great but it is still only defensive measures.


And what offensive measures do you believe will add to our security at home?

I would remind you of this: The science of bomb, bio, and chem terrorism has risen to the point that it would only take a small cadre of people to carry out some pretty devastating attacks. Governments are no longer needed in order to threaten large groups of people.

That being the case, do you really believe you can kill everyone who wants to hurt us? Remember that it won't take many to try and fight back.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
jpinMilwaukee
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Nov, 2004 05:24 pm
This is what I don't get Cy... you say terrorism really isn't that bad because there are more deaths by drunk driving and heart disease etc. but say that we should "deal with it" without ever giving any examples of how we should "deal with it."

Then you give a list of a few people who were killed in 1900 by a few anarchists and I say:

jpinMilwaukee wrote:

Comparing terrorism to the early 1900 is just silly. The ability of terrorists to destroy an entire city and millions of lives is very real... notice all of the examples in your article are single targets until it mentions Clinton and the bombing of the U.S. military compound in Dhahran, Saudi Arabia. Don't you agree that terrorism is a growing threat? Why wait until the numbers of deaths reach those of traffic accidents or heart disease to do anything about it?


You keep saying we should "deal with terrorism." How? How do you "deal with terrorists like we deal with any other criminal organization?"


You then do not answer my question and say:

Quote:
I would remind you of this: The science of bomb, bio, and chem terrorism has risen to the point that it would only take a small cadre of people to carry out some pretty devastating attacks. Governments are no longer needed in order to threaten large groups of people.


You admit that technology today allows terrorists to be more devastating but are willing to stand back and HOPE that next time it will still be within your acceptable levels of casualties.

You also say:

Cycloptichorn wrote:
Um, we go in a u-haul and pick them up wherever the f*ck they are. What's the alternative, go to war with every country terrorists are hiding in? That seems like a much worse solution to me.


After you accuse me of "Appealing to the extremes." Who is going to go in with u-haul trucks and pick them up? The FBI? The police? The Army? isn't that military action but on a smaller level? Are you suggesting that the way to deal with terrorists is to go get them one at a time? Do you really think that is going to save lives?

What I don't get is what exactly would you like the US to do about terrorism?
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Nov, 2004 06:49 pm
Quote:
What I don't get is what exactly would you like the US to do about terrorism?


Glad you asked.

This might take a little while.

Terrorism is nothing new. Just last year, I had a guy stay with me who was from England, and he introduced me to Guy Fawkes day, which celebrates (IIRC) the capture of a British traitor who wanted to blow up the House of Parliment. He had an assistant named Guido(really). They caught him AFTER the bombs had all been placed, thanks to a lucky tip. The Brits celebrate with bonfires, Guy Fawkes effigies burning, and alcohol.

That was in 1605. Four hundred years ago, someone was close enough to a major terrorist attack and only barely missed doing it. In all the time inbetween, the capability has been there for various peoples to employ the same tactics. You can talk about the technology changes, but one does have to admit that smuggling explosives under parliment is rather more complicated a plan then flying planes into buildings as a form of terrorism. The capability has existed for some time to do major damage.

And yet, it so rarely happens that terrorism manages to make a major impact upon human affairs. Why is this? Terrorism is an especially strong tool for the small group (or individual) to make a large statement, in their own minds if nowhere else. So we really should be seeing it happen all the time, especially given the advances that have been made in explosives technology in the last 50 years or so. But terrorism is still a relatively rare thing compared to the overall human population level.

To understand why, you have to ask: why do terrorists want to cause terror? And why with us?

What is the purpose of terrorism? There are two ways of thinking on this one:

1. To make a statement that cannot be ignored

or

2. To kill as many people as possible

Let's go ahead and say 'to kill as many Americans as possible' for the purposes of this discussion.

The first statement implies that the terrorists have political or economic goals in mind and have decided to go to extreme measures not to be ignored any longer.

The second implies that the terrorists have religious or imperialistic goals in mind and have decided to use whatever means neccessary to accomplish their goals.

I believe there is far more evidence that the first answer is the correct one when it comes to judging the underlying reasons for terrorism. I believe the second answer is the one that is used to understand the goals that we are accomplishing right now.

Let's say that you think that the terrorists really hate America and want it completely destroyed. Or that the largest amount of people possible were killed. Wouldn't they take on attacks, or targets, that would accomplish said goals? Does that match the pattern of attacks that we have seen so far upon America?

The answer is, it does not. The hijackers on 9/11 could have caused much more damage then they did by hitting other targets (How about the superbowl?). This is not to say that those f*ckers were benevolent or anything; merely to point out that if loss of life were the goal, they could have caused a larger loss of life.

They hit the WTC to make a statement. To kill people; that's what makes people sit up and listen (in their minds). But to show how they feel that their countries and societies are screwed up because of America, and they decided they aren't going to take it anymore.

A question? Why would these terrorists attack us?

Answer: they hate us.

Question: Why do they hate us?

Answer: let's find out.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
cannistershot
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Nov, 2004 06:55 pm
MerlinsGodson wrote:
cannistershot wrote:
cannistershot wrote:
You keep saying we should "deal with terrorism." How? How do you "deal with terrorists like we deal with any other criminal organization?"

Anyone, anyone please Question above


You catch them and prosecute them. Just like any other organized crime syndicate. Rolling Eyes



That be real easy Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling EyesI'm sure that any country would love for us to come in and "pick" the terrorists up Shocked
0 Replies
 
cannistershot
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Nov, 2004 06:57 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Quote:
No I am saying that is your opinion NOT FACT. Just like it is my opinion that the war in Iraq is all about the fight on terrorism.


The difference being, MY opinion is based upon the FACT that there weren't a significant number of terrorists in Iraq, there wasn't a significant amount of money being spent on terrorism in Iraq, and there are many many more terrorists there now than before we invaded.

EVERY piece of evidence we have found confirms what I hold as my opinion. You, on the other hand, have little if no evidence to back up your claim, other than the fact that you believe that America is doing the right thing.

Then again, this really does highlight the difference between the Secular and Religious modes of thought; my opinions are based upon logic and critical examination of my own opinion, whereas yours are based upon..... ?

Cycloptichorn




Again your OPINION versus my opinion.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Nov, 2004 07:09 pm
From Osama's latest tape:

(note that I am not advocating anything less than killing the man; but we should at least find out why he wants to hurt us first)

Quote:

Praise be to Allah who created the creation for his worship and commanded them to be just and permitted the wronged one to retaliate against the oppressor in kind. To proceed:

Peace be upon he who follows the guidance: People of America this talk of mine is for you and concerns the ideal way to prevent another Manhattan, and deals with the war and its causes and results.

Before I begin, I say to you that security is an indispensable pillar of human life and that free men do not forfeit their security, contrary to Bush's claim that we hate freedom.


I find it interesting, that last part. He directly states that he is fighting for his freedom and security.

Quote:
No, we fight because we are free men who don't sleep under oppression. We want to restore freedom to our nation, just as you lay waste to our nation. So shall we lay waste to yours.

No one except a dumb thief plays with the security of others and then makes himself believe he will be secure. Whereas thinking people, when disaster strikes, make it their priority to look for its causes, in order to prevent it happening again.

But I am amazed at you. Even though we are in the fourth year after the events of September 11th, Bush is still engaged in distortion, deception and hiding from you the real causes. And thus, the reasons are still there for a repeat of what occurred.


He says Bush isn't telling the truth; not about whether or not they did do it(which is what matters from a legal and moral point of view), but about why they did it.

Quote:
The events that affected my soul in a direct way started in 1982 when America permitted the Israelis to invade Lebanon and the American Sixth Fleet helped them in that. This bombardment began and many were killed and injured and others were terrorised and displaced.

I couldn't forget those moving scenes, blood and severed limbs, women and children sprawled everywhere. Houses destroyed along with their occupants and high rises demolished over their residents, rockets raining down on our home without mercy.


Now, here's my favorite:

Quote:
At a time when some of our compatriots were dazzled by America and hoping that these visits would have an effect on our countries, all of a sudden he was affected by those monarchies and military regimes, and became envious of their remaining decades in their positions, to embezzle the public wealth of the nation without supervision or accounting.

So he took dictatorship and suppression of freedoms to his son and they named it the Patriot Act, under the pretence of fighting terrorism. In addition, Bush sanctioned the installing of sons as state governors, and didn't forget to import expertise in election fraud from the region's presidents to Florida to be made use of in moments of difficulty.

All that we have mentioned has made it easy for us to provoke and bait this administration. All that we have to do is to send two mujahidin to the furthest point east to raise a piece of cloth on which is written al-Qaida, in order to make the generals race there to cause America to suffer human, economic, and political losses without their achieving for it anything of note other than some benefits for their private companies.


You may not think we're losing, but Bin Laden does. This emboldens him.

Osama Bin Laden never once says in this tape 'We hate the American People' or 'we want everyone in America to die' or 'we hate your freedoms.' He specifically says the OPPOSITE of that last one.

Why would he lie? What is the motivation for a man who ordered (and successfully, I might add) at least 3 major attacks against the US to lie?

By telling our people they hate and want to kill all of us, we legitimize him as a world power. We add to his cause. We have empowered our own enemies against us.

So; it is obvious that the terrorists believe that we have been harming their people in the middle east for some time, especially through our support of Israel. Whether that is true or not, let me ask you a question:

Is the best way to convince someone you don't want to harm them, to harm them?

By killing those who oppose us (the insurgents) we justify the religious leaders and terrorist leaders who are telling the people of the middle east that we are imperialists who very much DO want to harm them.

So, how do we fight terrorism? In two ways:

1. We force them to change.

2. We force ourselves to change.

#1. How many countries around the world harbor terrorism? 90, or something like that at last count?

Obviously we cannot invade them all.

Fortunately we don't need to; the vast majority of those countries are willing to cooperate with the international interest to track down and kill/arrest those terrorists.

So the question really is, 'How do we fight terrorism in countries who will not cooperate?'

And that is a very tough one to answer. If we cannot invade these countries every time this happens, there has to be a way to deal with this without invasion, which is massively harmful to the populace and ethos of the occupied people.

So yes, I do believe that an international police-type organization, with the cooperation of an international community backing them, can accomplish great tasks when it comes to finding terrorists and stopping terrorism. We use economic and other incentives to try to make countries cooperate before we invade them.

Here in the USA you won't find a lot of support for #2. People are proud; we don't want to change because someone else doesn't like our life, why should we, thank you very much!!!!!

But! If there is a chance that we are precipitating the violence in the middle east, logic demands that we examine that chance, find out if there is validity to it, and correct the problem. I'm sure I don't need to tell you the areas and ways in which we have affected their society in the last century or so, and I'm sure you can see for yourself ways that we could lessen that effect.

We are sluggish to change; people hate and fear change. But it is juvenille to expect that we can just go to the Middle East, kill Alllllll the bad guys, and then go home and live like we did before. That just isn't going to happen. We are not going to be able to kill all the bad guys without becoming very bad guys ourselves, and noone wants that, do they?

In Iraq, some say we've led to the deaths of over 100k people. Let's say that's too liberal a number, and call it 60k. That's 20 times the number of people who died in 9/11.

Many people say, 'You gotta break some eggs to make a cake' and 'Hey, we sure aren't killing as many as we could be.'

On 9/11, Bin Laden said to himself, 'You gotta break some eggs to make a cake' and 'Hey, we sure aren't killing as many as we could be.'

That's why war isn't the solution to terrorism; it's why we are going to have to adjust as a society to the reality of the Middle East; and it's why we should be working with the world to combat this threat, and not fragmenting it.

Thanks for asking

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
cannistershot
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Nov, 2004 07:19 pm
Ok Cy we are in Iraq, We see a terrorist and he/she has 2 bullets who do you think they will shoot first me or you? It doesn't matter point is they will kill us both. Why? Because we are Americans. Bin Laden is a lunatic that has his followers hook line and sinker.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Nov, 2004 07:21 pm
Quote:
Ok Cy we are in Iraq, We see a terrorist and he/she has 2 bullets who do you think they will shoot first me or you? It doesn't matter point is they will kill us both. Why? Because we are Americans. Bin Laden is a lunatic that has his followers hook line and sinker.


This is a simplistic way of looking at things.

Real life is a lot more complicated than that.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
cannistershot
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Nov, 2004 07:31 pm
Thinking that we can find out why Bin Laden hates us before we wipe him from the earth is simplistic. Who will ask? Should US forces stop when he IS found and send in a Q&A sheet for him to fill out and then lower the boom? When he is found he won't be alive IMO
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Nov, 2004 07:34 pm
Um, maybe we could listen and look at the things he says to us?

Why would he lie in tapes that he sends to the media describing his cause?

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
cannistershot
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Nov, 2004 07:40 pm
Why wouldn't he?
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Nov, 2004 07:49 pm
He has no motivation to lie.

I mean, this is a man who blows up things he doesn't like. He's done it. Several times.

If you are going to do that, why lie about your reasoning?

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Nov, 2004 07:53 pm
Cyclops, if you want to know what makes guys like Bin Ladin tick, you might try reading what better informed people have to say. NOT believing what Bin Ladin has to say. Seriously, dude. Rolling Eyes Here, I'll get you something that will even be to your taste in conclusion, should you bother to read it. Try:

"The Roots of Muslim Rage."

"Why so many Muslims deeply resent the West, and why their bitterness will not easily be mollified"

by Bernard Lewis

It may be longer than you're used to but I assure you, it is well worth the investment of your time.

Click here.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Nov, 2004 08:07 pm
Jesus Christ, Bill.

I've read that like three times, the first was for class back in college on the MENA region. It was a terrible article back then, full of inconsistencies, and it is now.


I suggest you take a hard look at the page where the article you linked to is hosted:

http://www.travelbrochuregraphics.com/extra/truthvictorious.htm

And see the other drek they have posted there. It's a conservative clearing-house for articles telling you exactly what you want to hear....

Don't come back until you come with something better than that, please....

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Nov, 2004 09:33 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
To understand why, you have to ask: why do terrorists want to cause terror? And why with us?


Actually, I believe the purpose of Bin Laden is simply to kill as many people as possible. He fits the classic profile of a psychopath. He has created a personality cult and seeks to perpetuate it. Yasir Arafat, Saddam Hussein, Slobodon Milosovich (sp?) all fit this mold.

Terrorism is not a proven method for forcing political change; in fact it backfires. This is not to be confused with sabotage, which has proven to be a successful technique in both warfare and non-violent protest and is being used to great effect by the resistance fighters in Iraq.

These terrorists are criminals, no matter what political mantle in which they try to cloak themselves.



And yes, I do believe they should be treated as simple criminals. They should be pursued by law enforcement both within and without our country. Regimes that attempt to harbor these criminals should be punished.

Don't fool yourself into thinking the war in Iraq is a just war, however. It is about oil. If it were about terrorism then we would also be occupying Gaza and the west bank. If it were about weapons of mass destruction then we would be invading North Korea and securing the weapons of the former USSR. If it were about criminal regimes then we would be be in Sudan.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Nov, 2004 09:35 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Um, maybe we could listen and look at the things he says to us?

Why would he lie in tapes that he sends to the media describing his cause?

Cycloptichorn


It is jarring that anyone thinks they have something to learn from Osama Bin Laden.

Read his Letter To America. 2002. He said his first priority is to convert us to Islam. Next, he will rid us of our ridiculous laws and we will submit to Sharia law. He goes on a bit about our degraded women, gambling, fornication, debauchery.

I can't believe there is a contingent of Americans who want to listen to any of the BS he has to say.
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Nov, 2004 09:58 pm
MerlinsGodson wrote:
Regimes that attempt to harbor these criminals should be punished.


By ... arresting the regime?
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Nov, 2004 10:06 pm
Any chance I could get a PM from the magic eraser?
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Nov, 2004 10:14 pm
Quote:
I can't believe there is a contingent of Americans who want to listen to any of the BS he has to say.


It's always worth listening to what someone has to say, even if you vehemently disagree with it.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
jpinMilwaukee
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Nov, 2004 09:16 am
Cycloptichorn wrote:
He has no motivation to lie.

I mean, this is a man who blows up things he doesn't like. He's done it. Several times.

If you are going to do that, why lie about your reasoning?


Interesting read CY... but I can't say I agree with you.

First you have to remember that the WTC were not the only target. Stating two reasons for terrorism (1 making a statement and 2 killing people) is a bit simplistic. 3000 people died but the targets were much bigger than that. They targeted not only the WTC but the pentagon (where the potential for deaths were much greater) and the White House.

Now why would they do that? I think it is three-fold. One, to disrupt our lives. Just think if the plans had been successful all around. What if they managed to get a plane to the white house? What if the president was killed? Our political system, while it would have survived, would have been thrown into a period of chaos.

We never imagined in our worst dreams planes flying into buildings... even after the planes hit we didn't imagine the towers falling until they actually did. Just think if they were successful in their attempts to attack the white house and killed prominent members of our political system or powerful people in the pentagon. We felt insecure after the attacks and that is what he wanted. He wants us scared and unable to live our lives without having to look over our shoulders always worrying about the next attack. People dying makes a statement but so does WHO you kill.

To an extent he has accomplished that. People are scared of terrorism... but instead of sitting back and waiting for it to happen again we went after them.

Second, I think 9/11 was a recruitment tool for Bin Laden. What better way to get others to join you than showing that you have the power to attack the evil US? If you recall people were cheering in the streets after the images of 9/11 were broadcast. Bin Laden suddenly has an entire new base of willing people to recruit from.

You ask what is his motivation to lie? To continue to disrupt our lives... and it's working. He has you believing that the way to handle terror is to find out what we did wrong and try to fix it. Does this really sound like a viable option to you? Do you really think that these people are going to sit down and reason with us?

Lets just say this happens. What message does that send to other terrorists? As long as you have a valid reason for attacking us we will be willing to negotiate with you? Make us scared enough and we will roll over and give you your demands?

Third, I think he is trying to create a civil war among us. He releases a tape right before the election and tells us it is in OUR hands (meaning the people). He then goes on to be very critical of the president. His purpose of the tape wasn't to promote one candidate or the other... the purpose was to keep us arguing amongst ourselves. It worked. Remember the arguing going on in the "Why is Bin Laden going to bat" thread? Lines were being drawn and friendships were close to being broken. What better way to disrupt our lives than turn brother against brother?

Why would he lie and tell us it is in our hands? Because he knows that we will never agree. He sees the rift between us right now and is exploiting it. The more we argue among ourselves the less resources we have to argue with him. He lives longer and we tear EACH OTHER apart... he doesn't need to do a thing... it's working.
0 Replies
 
 

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