1
   

Dear Jesus...Please Protect Me While I Slaughter Innocents..

 
 
JanW
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Nov, 2004 10:07 pm
Bi-Polar Bear wrote:
toally unrelated question here....about janw's tag line....if you go to eternity..in other words you're never going to run out of time....then how valuable can time be?


Ah, Bi (if I may address you by your first name?!)--

That's a great question for the philosophy forum. I, a faculty member in a philosophy department, wouldn't touch that question with a ten-foot-pole!
0 Replies
 
blueveinedthrobber
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Nov, 2004 10:10 pm
please do Bi, BPB, Bear, or one of the many unflattering names I go by here.....I'm a care bear....perhaps I'll post that question there....
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Nov, 2004 10:52 pm
Bi-Polar Bear wrote:
janw great post and welcome...

dlowan being careful with the semantics of my title, and believe me I see your point and it is a valid one....would be lost on the usual reactionaries on this thread, so why bother? If reasonable title or not, the reaction will be the same i.e. God Bless America screw you BPB you piece of ****...then hell? Why not vent? :wink: Laughing


Ah well - that I understand.

And I confess to some very bad tempered, and un-tactical, reactions to conservative trolls here in the last couple of days.

I have even used those stupid Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes - which I detest on normal days.

Wish I had something to kick which wouldn't hurt me more than it hurts it...
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Nov, 2004 10:53 pm
Hey - it is cool having Jan W - looks like we may have some great discussions here!!!!
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Nov, 2004 11:43 pm
Bi-Polar Bear wrote:
toally unrelated question here....about janw's tag line....if you go to eternity..in other words you're never going to run out of time....then how valuable can time be?


I think even with eternal time available, the activity animadverted upon is argued to be wasteful.

Indeed, it is a rather lovely hyperbolic device - rather like Donne's "quintessence even from nothingness" in "Nocturnal Upon St Lucy's day" - a conceit if you will!

http://search.able2know.com/About/3711.html

I believe I have digressed.
0 Replies
 
Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Nov, 2004 12:48 am
Bi-Polar Bear wrote:
and how did that work out for you Craven?


Same as with praying to Jesus, ended up having to do it all myself.
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Nov, 2004 01:58 am
JanW wrote:


Kosovo: meets the requirements for justice in going to war (jus ad bellum), but not, I don't think, the requirements for justice in the means of fighting the war (jus in bello)....

Iraq: Absolutely unjust, and the military ethicists that I know personally think so, too. Pre-emptive war is justified according to just war theory (JWT) if the threat is OBVIOUS and IMMINENT....


And you say you teach this stuff...

I would strongly disagree with you in both instances. However much of a disaster Kosovo might have been prior to the NATO operation, it's fifty times more of a disaster now, and the crime capital of Europe. The Albanian Kosovars appear to be a modern version of Attilla the Hun's people and organization and have utterly ruined the entire cultural heritage of the place including hundreds of priceless orthodox churches and monasteries, and their political organization, the KLA, is clearly nothingmore than a branch of AlQuaeda. In my view, if Milosevic had exterminated the suckers, he'd have been doing the world a favor.

Iraq on the other hand in my view is fully justified. There is overwhelming evidence that Saddam Hussein played a major role in the anthrax attacks which followed 9-11 as well as in a number of prior atrocities. The idea of sitting there waiting to see what the next item up on his agenda might have been strikes me as insane.
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Nov, 2004 02:00 am
Craven de Kere wrote:
Bi-Polar Bear wrote:
and how did that work out for you Craven?


Same as with praying to Jesus, ended up having to do it all myself.


The idea is not to ask Jesus to fight your battles in life FOR you; it'll never happen. The idea is to ask him for the strength and wisdom to fight them YOURSELF...
0 Replies
 
Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Nov, 2004 02:17 am
I'm not sure you understand what the idea really was. I know, because it was mine.

I wanted to steal some books, and I wanted help in keeping them hidden from people who would take them away from me.

They claimed Jesus was on their side and I figured he'd squeal so I asked the Devil for a hand.

He turned out to be as lazy as Jesus and they got burned, so I had to steal new books and hide them in the woods.
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Nov, 2004 02:39 am
Satan helps those who help themselves!!!!!

Yay woods!
0 Replies
 
Aris
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Nov, 2004 04:27 am
gungasnake wrote:
JanW wrote:


Kosovo: meets the requirements for justice in going to war (jus ad bellum), but not, I don't think, the requirements for justice in the means of fighting the war (jus in bello)....

Iraq: Absolutely unjust, and the military ethicists that I know personally think so, too. Pre-emptive war is justified according to just war theory (JWT) if the threat is OBVIOUS and IMMINENT....


And you say you teach this stuff...

I would strongly disagree with you in both instances. However much of a disaster Kosovo might have been prior to the NATO operation, it's fifty times more of a disaster now, and the crime capital of Europe. The Albanian Kosovars appear to be a modern version of Attilla the Hun's people and organization and have utterly ruined the entire cultural heritage of the place including hundreds of priceless orthodox churches and monasteries, and their political organization, the KLA, is clearly nothingmore than a branch of AlQuaeda. In my view, if Milosevic had exterminated the suckers, he'd have been doing the world a favor.

Well said. And the US' recognition of the "Democracy of Macedonia" (one day after Bush won) plays rights into their hands and dreams of a "Greater Albania".
0 Replies
 
JanW
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Nov, 2004 06:54 am
Aris wrote:
gungasnake wrote:
JanW wrote:


Kosovo: meets the requirements for justice in going to war (jus ad bellum), but not, I don't think, the requirements for justice in the means of fighting the war (jus in bello)....

Iraq: Absolutely unjust, and the military ethicists that I know personally think so, too. Pre-emptive war is justified according to just war theory (JWT) if the threat is OBVIOUS and IMMINENT....


And you say you teach this stuff...

I would strongly disagree with you in both instances. However much of a disaster Kosovo might have been prior to the NATO operation, it's fifty times more of a disaster now, and the crime capital of Europe. The Albanian Kosovars appear to be a modern version of Attilla the Hun's people and organization and have utterly ruined the entire cultural heritage of the place including hundreds of priceless orthodox churches and monasteries, and their political organization, the KLA, is clearly nothingmore than a branch of AlQuaeda. In my view, if Milosevic had exterminated the suckers, he'd have been doing the world a favor.

Well said. And the US' recognition of the "Democracy of Macedonia" (one day after Bush won) plays rights into their hands and dreams of a "Greater Albania".


It could be that you're right when it comes to Kosovo (except for the extermination claim--I just can't go along with that!) Or it could be that we (US, NATO) let them down when it came time to stick around and try to maintain the peace. We have a bad history where that's concerned!

As for Macedonia & democracy, etc.--I am appalled at the claim that the US needs to spread democracy. This is ethnocentric in the extreme, and is particularly disgusting when the US benefits from the puppet governments we've supported through the years. The fact is that we support whatever government will best feed our insatiable greed for their natural resources.

Gungasnake, you said that there's evidence of a tie between Saddam Hussein and the anthrax scare here in the US. I haven't seen that evidence. Please send it along and I'll have a look at it.

Thanks for the wonderful welcome you guys have given me!
0 Replies
 
Aris
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Nov, 2004 07:09 am
JanW wrote:
The fact is that we support whatever government will best feed our insatiable greed for their natural resources.

Exactly.

What never ceases to amaze me is how so many Americans deny this, even when presented with undeniable facts & documentation.
0 Replies
 
blueveinedthrobber
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Nov, 2004 07:58 am
gungasnake wrote:
JanW wrote:


Kosovo: meets the requirements for justice in going to war (jus ad bellum), but not, I don't think, the requirements for justice in the means of fighting the war (jus in bello)....

Iraq: Absolutely unjust, and the military ethicists that I know personally think so, too. Pre-emptive war is justified according to just war theory (JWT) if the threat is OBVIOUS and IMMINENT....


And you say you teach this stuff...
I would strongly disagree with you in both instances. However much of a disaster Kosovo might have been prior to the NATO operation, it's fifty times more of a disaster now, and the crime capital of Europe. The Albanian Kosovars appear to be a modern version of Attilla the Hun's people and organization and have utterly ruined the entire cultural heritage of the place including hundreds of priceless orthodox churches and monasteries, and their political organization, the KLA, is clearly nothingmore than a branch of AlQuaeda. In my view, if Milosevic had exterminated the suckers, he'd have been doing the world a favor.

Iraq on the other hand in my view is fully justified. There is overwhelming evidence that Saddam Hussein played a major role in the anthrax attacks which followed 9-11 as well as in a number of prior atrocities. The idea of sitting there waiting to see what the next item up on his agenda might have been strikes me as insane.


way to welcome a new member gungasnake....gracious, skillful....and certainly revealing of yourself...good work.....
0 Replies
 
willow tl
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Nov, 2004 08:01 am
what I found even more impressive is JanW ignored the obvious slam attempt..which makes him/her A#1 in my book....welcome again JanW.
0 Replies
 
gustavratzenhofer
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Nov, 2004 08:01 am
gungasnake wrote:
In my view, if Milosevic had exterminated the suckers, he'd have been doing the world a favor.


I would be willing to make a fairly significant wager, and feel very comfortable about my chances of winning, that gungasnake's real name is Billy Bob.

Just a hunch.
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Nov, 2004 10:08 am
JanW wrote:

It could be that you're right when it comes to Kosovo (except for the extermination claim--I just can't go along with that!) Or it could be that we (US, NATO) let them down when it came time to stick around and try to maintain the peace. We have a bad history where that's concerned!


In the case of Kosovo, there's at least one gigantic problem which nobody has addressed yet: If ethnicity is henceforth to be eveything and history and rightful ownership not count for anything anymore, what do we say when the UN steps in demanding that we hand the entire American southwest including Texas and California over to Mexico on the same basis. Me, I'd rather simply give Kosovo back to Serbia and forget the whole deal.

Quote:

As for Macedonia & democracy, etc.--I am appalled at the claim that the US needs to spread democracy. This is ethnocentric in the extreme, and is particularly disgusting when the US benefits from the puppet governments we've supported through the years. The fact is that we support whatever government will best feed our insatiable greed for their natural resources.


I'd argue both points again. One, the total lack of democratic and responsible government in the middle east other than for Israel is arguably the major problem and the problem creates enough danger for us to justify trying to spread democracy in the region.

Two, the claim that we invaded Iraq for oil is basically idiotic, it would have been vastly cheaper just to buy the oil.

Quote:

Gungasnake, you said that there's evidence of a tie between Saddam Hussein and the anthrax scare here in the US. I haven't seen that evidence. Please send it along and I'll have a look at it.


That one strikes me as unarguable, and I'd not refer to it as a scare. People died. What that was was an outright act of war which we were simply unprepared to deal with at the time due to the neglect of the previous administration.

The question of the technical sophistication of the anthrax involved is dealt with here:

http://www.aim.org/publications/media_monitor/2004/01/01.html

Basically, nobody other than Saddam Hussein has ever created any sort of an anthrax weapon that sophisticated.

Other than that, the connections between the anthrax and the 9-11 hijackers are well documented and the Czechs are sticking with their story of Mohammed Atta having met with Iraqi state security officials in Prague prior to 9-11. It's the kind of an accumulation of circumstantial evidence which would be sufficient to convict in any courtroom.
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Nov, 2004 10:11 am
Bi-Polar Bear wrote:


way to welcome a new member gungasnake....gracious, skillful....and certainly revealing of yourself...good work.....


I was merely noting my surprise that somebody who taught such subjects would come to such conclusions.

Those who can't come up with rational arguments try to villify...
0 Replies
 
Steppenwolf
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Nov, 2004 10:55 am
gungasnake wrote:

That one strikes me as unarguable, and I'd not refer to it as a scare. People died. What that was was an outright act of war which we were simply unprepared to deal with at the time due to the neglect of the previous administration.

The question of the technical sophistication of the anthrax involved is dealt with here:

http://www.aim.org/publications/media_monitor/2004/01/01.html

Basically, nobody other than Saddam Hussein has ever created any sort of an anthrax weapon that sophisticated.

Other than that, the connections between the anthrax and the 9-11 hijackers are well documented and the Czechs are sticking with their story of Mohammed Atta having met with Iraqi state security officials in Prague prior to 9-11. It's the kind of an accumulation of circumstantial evidence which would be sufficient to convict in any courtroom.


The article you site hardly provides "unarguable" evidence, and even the author doesn't leap to such conclusions--he presents it as a possibility. If a mere "possibility" was enough of a threshold of evidence for you, I doubt you'd be such a vigorous detractor of oil conspiracies, which I agree are likely false. In regards to the assertion that "nobody other than Saddam Hussein has ever created any sort of an anthrax that sophisticated," you are plainly wrong; the U.S. has the capability, and our labs have produced the EXACT strain used. After Oklahoma City, I'm surprised that you wouldn't consider the possibility (likelihood?) of a domestic terrorist in one of the many labs that has had access to domestically produced anthrax. It's intellectually dishonest to present your argument in terms of the "unarguable," and notably, no one in the current administration has taken such a strong stance on this.

Moreover, I urge you to look at your initial dispute with JanW. You asked about whether Kosovo or Iraq were "just" invasions, and then proceeded to take a consequentialist perspective about the merits of Kosovo. You argued that we left a mess in our wake. Is this the same perspective you take on Iraq--also a mess, or have some of your arguments been leaning more towards a priori justifications (hypothetical ties to terrorists, the crimes of Saddam, and anthrax ties to Saddam)? You should remember that JanW's initial post was about "jus ad bellum," not about the actual success of the wars.

Finally:

gungasnake wrote:

Those who can't come up with rational arguments try to villify...


And

gungasnake wrote:

And you say you teach this stuff...


Draw you own logical connections on that one.

When I see inconsistent methodologies and a willingness to accept different burdens of proof in similar situations, I often suspect conclusion driven thought. But perhaps I should give you the benefit of the doubt. :wink:
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Nov, 2004 11:00 am
Steppenwolf wrote:
gungasnake wrote:

That one strikes me as unarguable, and I'd not refer to it as a scare. People died. What that was was [sic]....


You're the one in need of English lessions here and not me. The thing might have looked slightly better with a comma after the first 'was' but it's still perfectly good use of language.

I basically stop reading after something like that. If you want to repost your screed without the unwarranted condescension, I'll read it.
0 Replies
 
 

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