An Apology to All the Gay a2kers

Good on you Piffka!!!!!

And the same to Australian gays, upon whom we have perpetrated a similar offense, by the small, but definite, majority of folk who voted OUR conservative and mean-spirited government back in.

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I too was dismayed when I saw the results of the gay marriage amendments.

I had mentioned this once before, but I think that it bears clarifying in this context. Marriage is a very sacred institution to many people, and has been the bedrock of civilization. It is not something that most people want to mess with. It also has a highly religious component.

Soooo.....................IMO, the concept "marriage" should be taken out of the governmental sphere entirely. Civil unions (for ALL) more neatly convey the relationship of the couple to the state. It would be a contract, that confers the rights, privileges and obligations of a committed couple.

Then, if the couple wants to go to a house of worship and have their union sanctified, as a marriage, fine and dandy, but not necessary.

I think that the best way for gay people to have equal rights in committed relationships, is to remove the concept of marriage entirely out of the secular realm, and leave it in the purview of religion.

I don't think that my idea would make much headway in the present administration, but it is something to work for in the future!

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If that is the case stuh that marriage is a spiritual ceremony then any men and women marriages by the justice of the peace should not be deemed a marriage either. Only those deemed by a church. Funny thing is if we do re-define marriage by being a spiritual ceremony then more homosexuals would be able to be married. Many churches recognize homosexual relationship and are willing to marry homosexual couples. In many cases, they already perform such "marriages" at least in the church, if not recognized by the state.

As far as a long-standing tradition, there were many of these in our past that are no longer recognized. Women being able to vote and having equal rights as men. This was a long standing tradition, no longer. Interracial marriages, were illegal and a long standing tradition, no longer. There are reasons to break some long standing traditions - equality for one is a good reason.

Stuh if it is a rebellion thing, it is typically sort lived. Most rebellion things are. How do you come up with your facts that for a large percentage it is a choice? Sounds made up to me, as every person I know who deem themselves homosexual have not changed, except one - who was using it to get out of his marriage. It was short lived; maybe 6 months at the most.

As far as gays adopting children - I believe you will see the same issues as a black adopting a white child or similar arguments about interracial couples having children.

My opinion exactly Phoenix!

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What led me to this apology is that not only have "Gay Marriages" been banned, but "Civil Unions" were banned in Michigan. I'm not sure that the gay community needed to have their committed relationship called a "marriage" but why ban a civil union? That's just mean-spirited.

I found this little vignette; thought it apt:

Quote:

The Way To Get To Get To Heaven

French existentialist playwright Jean Anouilh proposed a scenario for the last judgment.
The good are densely clustered at the gate of heaven, eager to march in, sure of their reserved seats, keyed up and bursting with impatience.
All at once, a rumor starts spreading: "It seems He's going to forgive those others, too!"
For a minute, everybody's dumbfounded. They look at one another in disbelief, gasping and sputtering, "After all the trouble I went through!" "If only I'd known this" "I just cannot get over it!"
Exasperated, they work themselves into a fury and start cursing God; and at that very instant they're damned. That was the final judgment. (cited in Louis Evely, That Man is You)

Grand Duke -- You asked about adopting -- What about the gay people who bore their own children? Should those children be taken away? Can their gay partner ever be considered a custodial parent?

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dlowan wrote:

And the same to Australian gays, upon whom we have perpetrated a similar offense, by the small, but definite, majority of folk who voted OUR conservative and mean-spirited government back in.

We know the United States and Australia are a little backward at the present time, thanks to the wisdom of their "religious" leaders, but how about other countries around the world, as far as the gay rights issues go?

Who has the best scorecard?

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Quote:

Interracial marriages, were illegal and a long standing tradition, no longer.

Linkat- Not being a historian, I really do not know how long miscegenation was illegal, and whether this practice was only in the US, or all over the world. (Setanta, where are you when I need you?)

What I DO know, is that marriage has been a tradition that has been carried on all over the world from time immemorial.

I am going to have to delve more deeply into this issue. Interesting!

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Piffka, I'm glad that you started this thread, too. Any kind of banning concerning a person's make up, that comes to the point of legislation is a fearsome thing, and the fact that I adore Gautam, has nothing to do with it.

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Phoenix32890 wrote:

Quote:
Interracial marriages, were illegal and a long standing tradition, no longer.

Linkat- Not being a historian, I really do not know how long miscegenation was illegal, and whether this practice was only in the US, or all over the world. (Setanta, where are you when I need you?)

What I DO know, is that marriage has been a tradition that has been carried on all over the world from time immemorial.

I am going to have to delve more deeply into this issue. Interesting!

It was illegal until the 60's. That didn't stop it though one example is Frederick Douglass.

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Phoenix32890 wrote:

Quote:
Interracial marriages, were illegal and a long standing tradition, no longer.

Linkat- Not being a historian, I really do not know how long miscegenation was illegal, and whether this practice was only in the US, or all over the world. (Setanta, where are you when I need you?)

What I DO know, is that marriage has been a tradition that has been carried on all over the world from time immemorial.

I am going to have to delve more deeply into this issue. Interesting!

Miscegnation was finally allowed by the US Supreme Court (or, rather, laws against it were struck down), in 1967, with the aptly named Loving vs. Virginia case, my favorite Supreme Court case ever. See: http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/conlaw/loving.html

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As one who is guilty of miscegenation....

I am not sure if I would be happy about having a "civil union" with my wife (or is that partner).

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Does anyone know if miscegenation laws were anywhere else but the US?
I do know that marriage has been around since biblical times.

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Phoenix, I don't have the time to check right now but I imagine miscegnation was illegal under apartheid in South Africa, at the very least.

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http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/miscegenation

In addition to the US, the Nazis had a law in Germany forbidding intermarriage between Jews and Germans. South Africa had the "Immorality Act".

http://africanhistory.about.com/library/bl/blsalaws.htm

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Piffka wrote:

Grand Duke -- You asked about adopting -- What about the gay people who bore their own children? Should those children be taken away? Can their gay partner ever be considered a custodial parent?

Like I said, I am agnostic on this issue. I don't know whether gay couples should be able to adopt kids and I don't really care. Until the time comes when someone asks me to vote on the subject (which in the UK is highly unlikely as the vast majority of our voting is done by Parliament, not the public), then I will carry on as I am. If I had gay friends who wanted to adopt then it might force me into a decision sooner.

As for civil unions - and the legal rights & benefits that it would bestow, then I am in total agreement that gay couples should have the same rights as the rest of us. It's ridiculously easy to get married and divorced anyway, so all this about the sanctity of marriage and spiritual union is just a load of crap, IMO.

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ebrown_p wrote:

As one who is guilty of miscegenation....

I am not sure if I would be happy about having a "civil union" with my wife (or is that partner).

I really meant that I don't know if the "marriage" title came from the gay community, the opponents or the media. My preference would be say any committet couple is married since it immediately implies a host of other responsibilities, duties, privileges, and legal points, which I have no reason to withhold from someone else.

Seems to me that it is difficult to put together the whole range of agreements necessary to come close to a marriage contract. I'm sure a lawyer would have a better idea.

While I was searching on the web, I ran into this essay about religion and gay marriage, Phoenix. I was surprised to read his interpretation of the Catholic ceremony.

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(( offering my humble, sometimes unwanted opinion )) Cool

I personally still wonder who/what/where/when/why did anyone start giving a ratsass about who was sleeping with who ?
What goes on in somoene else's bedroom has nothing to do with you.
( You, being the general public.. not anyone specific )
If you are not in someones bedroom , then it isnt your business. Plain and simple. I hate to see people feel as though they need to enforce control ( however percieved ) over SOMEONE elses life.
I do apologize... this next statement may offend.. understand .. it isnt ment to. Sad

Christians have been the ones to stand behind the " no gay marriages' rules and laws. I blame them. Not totally.. but I do point the finger at the christian-repuiblican. >sigh< That is a big part of america.
The C-R on one hand screams Seperation of church and state..
Yet on the other hand ,they enforce christianity in to the very fabric of society.
The problem with that is christianity is a sad religion ( yet again.. my opinion ) It is this religion and many others that tell you , you cant sleep with or love someone of the same sex. It is this religion that says homosexual unions are wrong and in turn teaches embarassment, self hatred, and makes people feel 'unnatural or not normal fo thier sexual orientation.
Until this country is able to TRULY seperate church and state Im afraid our gay societies are doomed.
Marriage is simply a union under a RELIGION. It shouldnt be legal..
Having marriage legal completely throws out the meaning of seperating church and state. Marriage stemmed from religious ceremonies and has seen its way into the back bone of our society. Hence.. people dont want to budge on its supposed meaning. I think the term 'marriage' should be a choice , and a legal union a freedom for everyone... of eveyr race and every sexual orientation.
But for some strange reason, people still choose to try and dictate what happens in other peoples homes and bedrooms by trying to make things illegal.
Ug.... >sigh< Evil or Very Mad

If it were up to me......... well ........ that is a diffrent soap box all together.

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Grand Duke,

Gay couples (not married) are adopting children already in the US. There is a big need for adoption of older children and homosexual couples can provide families with caring responsible adults.

This has been been happening here for a while with little fanfare. How could anyone condemn children to lives in foster care based on prejudice.

One of my co-workers adopted a 9 year old boy. It is clearly a wonderful situation for his son and also give him and his partner a chance to raise a family.

A friend of my family is a lesbian who is divorced (from a failed heterosexual marriage). She also does a fine job at raising a wonderful daughter.

Deal with it. Gays are already filling a big need for adoptive parents, and no one with any heart can say this is a bad thing.

That they aren't allowed to form strong legally sanction families with support partners hurts the kids.

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I believe that it's just a matter of time before the rights of homosexual couples are acknowledged. Everyone who's fighting against it, is fighting a losing battle.

As to the semantics - my parents were married by a justice of the peace. Okay, so that wasn't a "marriage," it was a "civil union." But will we be adding a checkbox on all the forms people fill out? (Single, married, divorced, widowed - unionized?)

I don't think you can change the meaning of marriage as it has come to be used. I think we'll need to change the concept of marriage as being "one man, one woman." And the sooner the better.

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ebrown_p wrote:

Grand Duke,

Gay couples (not married) are adopting children already in the US. There is a big need for adoption of older children and homosexual couples can provide families with caring responsible adults.

This has been been happening here for a while with little fanfare. How could anyone condemn children to lives in foster care based on prejudice.

One of my co-workers adopted a 9 year old boy. It is clearly a wonderful situation for his son and also give him and his partner a chance to raise a family.

A friend of my family is a lesbian who is divorced (from a failed heterosexual marriage). She also does a fine job at raising a wonderful daughter.

Deal with it. Gays are already filling a big need for adoptive parents, and no one with any heart can say this is a bad thing.

That they aren't allowed to form strong legally sanction families with support partners hurts the kids.

As bad as this hurts me I will have to agree with you to a point. If children can get into a loving home sexual orientation shouldn't matter IMO.

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What really angers me, is that some people disparage gays by saying that they have a promiscuous lifestyle. Now that many gays want to have a committed union recognized by the law..................

It looks like a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation!

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An Apology to All the Gay a2kers

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