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Okay, Dems, What Went Wrong? And How Can We Fix It?

 
 
Larry434
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Nov, 2004 02:58 pm
Piffka wrote:
Larry434 wrote:
Listen to what the exit polls told you is important to the electorate and craft a campaign that focuses like a laser on the value judgments expressed.


I call that pandering to the lowest common denominator. IF that's what it takes to win, I'm out of here. I just won't vote.

Besides, John Kerry, rightly or wrongly, was criticized soundly for doing just that.


Lola -- Being devious is hard for me. I'm willing to learn, but only for a candidate and a platform that covers at least some of the things I consider important.


"Well winning isn't everything, but it beats coming in second"

Coach Bear Bryant[/[/i]
0 Replies
 
Ethel2
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Nov, 2004 03:08 pm
Quote:
Feel free to ignore the values expressed in the exit polling, if you wish. But don't be surprised when you get the same whupping in election 2008.


This is pure naivete, larry...........I didn't say to ignore the values. But adopting them won't get us where we want to go. If we wanted to do that, we could simply join the Bush choir and be happy to be converted. We have to learn how to appeal to those who share those values by selling a packaged product, just like the Republicans have been doing for years. If we don't learn this lesson this time..........I give up (not really, I'll keep trying as long as I live.)

Most people are hard working people who don't have the time or inclination (for whatever reason) to keep themselves informed enough. The majority of the electorate, or those who can swing either way, need something simple and easy to digest when they're making up their minds. And apparently, they also need someone to give them a cause (whether real or manufactured) to vote for. But it has to be palatable and not too threatening. If we don't learn how to package the deal, we'll continue to lose.

Values have little to do with sales. Personal values have everything to do with the motivation to sell. If we want to save our world from domination by the fanatics now in control, we need to use our values to motivate ourselves. But telling the bare truth about our values will only get us where the fanatics would be if they were still doing the same.
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Larry434
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Nov, 2004 03:12 pm
"This is pure naivete, larry...........I didn't say to ignore the values. But adopting them won't get us where we want to go."

You don't have to adopt them, just recognize them and be tolerant of them instead of insulting those that hold them.
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Ethel2
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Nov, 2004 03:17 pm
Quote:
Lola -- Being devious is hard for me. I'm willing to learn, but only for a candidate and a platform that covers at least some of the things I consider important.


I agree with you Piffka, absolutely. What else could be worth the effort? But we have to learn to not let those issues that we care about.......those that cause too much fear and confusion on the part of some.......to be heard so loudly. I believe whoever wants to marry should be allowed to......I believe it strongly. But we can't win by rubbing people's nose in it. I do agree with the essence of jpinMilwaukee's post. Think........how long since we heard much open talk from the religious fanatics? Not since the election in 1992. When they helped Clinton win......when voters could see how mean spirited they were........we stopped hearing from them. Karl Rove and Ralph Reed organized that effort.

We need to do the same.
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Ethel2
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Nov, 2004 03:23 pm
Quote:
You don't have to adopt them, just recognize them and be tolerant of them instead of insulting those that hold them.


Well, Larry, I wasn't suggesting we adopt a party platform of, "let's insult the voters." Today, I'm not feeling very tolerant. In my opinion those who voted for Bush have done a foolish and dangerous thing. And I'm having trouble not saying so. But I wasn't suggesting we use my feelings in a campaign speech for 2008. Today I think we should be talking about what went wrong and get busy doing something about it. In this sense, I agree with you.........that's what I've been saying all day, after all.

Have you become a repentant voter? If so, let's talk about what can be done. Otherwise, talk to me later.......
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Nov, 2004 03:24 pm
Quote:
"This is pure naivete, larry...........I didn't say to ignore the values. But adopting them won't get us where we want to go."

You don't have to adopt them, just recognize them and be tolerant of them instead of insulting those that hold them.


It's hard to do that when the values espoused by the party in question are greed, fear, and intolerance....

Greed - wanting to keep as much money as possible, no matter the cost to the government or our children

Fear - of terrorism, to the point that it drives policy

Intolerance - of homosexuals and foriegners

And we're supposed to tolerate that? I don't think so...

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Nov, 2004 03:26 pm
Re: Okay, Dems, What Went Wrong? And How Can We Fix It?
blacksmithn wrote:
Alright, it's all over but the shouting. We took a hell of a beating. We need to figure out what went wrong, fix it, then go back and retake the place, state by state, House seat by House seat. We've got 4 years, let's get started.

So, where did we go wrong? We had the money, we had a candidate who, if lackluster, was certainly head and shoulders above Shrub in the credentials and integrity department.


You could make a statement like that and then wonder what went wrong???
0 Replies
 
Ethel2
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Nov, 2004 03:40 pm
Welcome gunga (not) I didn't know you'd become a Democrat overnight.
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Larry434
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Nov, 2004 03:55 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Quote:
"This is pure naivete, larry...........I didn't say to ignore the values. But adopting them won't get us where we want to go."

You don't have to adopt them, just recognize them and be tolerant of them instead of insulting those that hold them.


It's hard to do that when the values espoused by the party in question are greed, fear, and intolerance....

Greed - wanting to keep as much money as possible, no matter the cost to the government or our children

Fear - of terrorism, to the point that it drives policy

Intolerance - of homosexuals and foriegners

And we're supposed to tolerate that? I don't think so...

Cycloptichorn


Some would argue, not I, that you tolerate and even promote far worse.
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Nov, 2004 04:00 pm
Lola wrote:
Welcome gunga (not) I didn't know you'd become a Democrat overnight.


Lola, I suggest you stick to the "wailing and gnashing teeth" thread if you are so hung-up about Bush supporters offering advice to you. That thread has been sanitized for your comfort and enjoyment.
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Acquiunk
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Nov, 2004 04:16 pm
Cut and paste I supose but Friedman lays out what the Democrate are up against and what they must address.

Two Nations Under God
By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN

Published: November 4, 2004 New York Times

But what troubled me yesterday was my feeling that this election was tipped because of an outpouring of support for George Bush by people who don't just favor different policies than I do - they favor a whole different kind of America. We don't just disagree on what America should be doing; we disagree on what America is.

Is it a country that does not intrude into people's sexual preferences and the marriage unions they want to make? Is it a country that allows a woman to have control over her body? Is it a country where the line between church and state bequeathed to us by our Founding Fathers should be inviolate? Is it a country where religion doesn't trump science? And, most important, is it a country whose president mobilizes its deep moral energies to unite us - instead of dividing us from one another and from the world?

... Mr. Bush's base is pushing so hard to legislate social issues and extend the boundaries of religion that it felt as if we were rewriting the Constitution, not electing a president.

Despite an utterly incompetent war performance in Iraq and a stagnant economy, Mr. Bush held onto the same basic core of states that he won four years ago - as if nothing had happened.

My problem with the Christian fundamentalists supporting Mr. Bush is not their spiritual energy or the fact that I am of a different faith. It is the way in which he and they have used that religious energy to promote divisions and intolerance at home and abroad. I respect that moral energy, but wish that Democrats could find a way to tap it for different ends.


Meanwhile, there is a lot of talk that Mr. Bush has a mandate for his far right policies. Yes, he does have a mandate, but he also has a date - a date with history. If Mr. Bush can salvage the war in Iraq, forge a solution for dealing with our entitlements crisis - which can be done only with a bipartisan approach and a more sane fiscal policy - upgrade America's competitiveness, prevent Iran from going nuclear and produce a solution for our energy crunch, history will say that he used his mandate to lead to great effect. If he pushes for still more tax cuts and fails to solve our real problems, his date with history will be a very unpleasant one - no matter what mandate he has.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/11/04/opinion/04friedman.html?hp
0 Replies
 
cavfancier
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Nov, 2004 04:18 pm
Ticomaya wrote:
Lola wrote:
Welcome gunga (not) I didn't know you'd become a Democrat overnight.


Lola, I suggest you stick to the "wailing and gnashing teeth" thread if you are so hung-up about Bush supporters offering advice to you. That thread has been sanitized for your comfort and enjoyment.


Cool. How many paper toilet covers, towels and plushy robes can I steal while you folks suss it out? I'm a tourist, after all. You can't prosecute me as a foreigner...yet.
0 Replies
 
Acquiunk
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Nov, 2004 04:27 pm
cavfancier wrote:

Cool. How many paper toilet covers, towels and plushy robes can I steal while you folks suss it out? I'm a tourist, after all. You can't prosecute me as a foreigner...yet.


Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing
0 Replies
 
blacksmithn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Nov, 2004 04:42 pm
Apparently the Republicans among us may simply have reading comprehension problems. While that might explain some things, here is neither the time nor place to discuss them.

You've been asked politely not to intrude. Go somewhere else, please, you erstwhile Limbaughs. The adults would like to talk.
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Nov, 2004 04:55 pm
blacksmithn wrote:
Apparently the Republicans among us may simply have reading comprehension problems. While that might explain some things, here is neither the time nor place to discuss them.

You've been asked politely not to intrude. Go somewhere else, please, you erstwhile Limbaughs. The adults would like to talk.


Fine, since you're being so genteel. Rolling Eyes I hadn't realized you folks had intended to commandeer this thread only for yourselves ... my mistake. Take as many threads as you need.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Nov, 2004 05:00 pm
Odd, when I took roll call a while back, it seemed we only had about 3 actual Democrats, Most were proudly registered as "independents" or Green etc. Does that mean you don't get to speak here either?
0 Replies
 
Dartagnan
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Nov, 2004 05:09 pm
I guess Democrats are those of us who voted for Kerry the other day. Is that a good enough litmus test?
0 Replies
 
Larry434
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Nov, 2004 05:54 pm
Ticomaya wrote:
blacksmithn wrote:
Apparently the Republicans among us may simply have reading comprehension problems. While that might explain some things, here is neither the time nor place to discuss them.

You've been asked politely not to intrude. Go somewhere else, please, you erstwhile Limbaughs. The adults would like to talk.


Fine, since you're being so genteel. Rolling Eyes I hadn't realized you folks had intended to commandeer this thread only for yourselves ... my mistake. Take as many threads as you need.


The Dems are much more comfortable preaching to the choir without fear of their pronouncements being challenged I guess.
0 Replies
 
jespah
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Nov, 2004 06:00 pm
jpinMilwaukee wrote:
...

I am the person you should be trying to convince. But everytime you call me stupid or a sheep or tell me you need to "simplify" your ideas for me, everytime you call me a racist and a fascist or a homophobe all you do is push me farther away from your ideas.

I am none of those things... but you automatically group me with those that are... and every time that you do you drive the wedge that is dividing this country a little bit deeper.


This shouldn't be lost.

PS, Thanks, Walter, I hadn't even noticed the 10,000 posts thing.
0 Replies
 
Dartagnan
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Nov, 2004 06:03 pm
I saw a thread here for Republicans to discuss their enthusiasm (or whatever) over the results this week. Out of respect for them, I resisted the temptation to jump in when one genius noted that Bush had won by a greater plurality than any other candidate. I guess he forgot about Johnson in 1964, Nixon in 1972, and several others.

Why the need, to spread such foolishness here, too?
0 Replies
 
 

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