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Okay, Dems, What Went Wrong? And How Can We Fix It?

 
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Nov, 2004 03:57 pm
Quote:
Republicanism is not fundamentalism says leading evangelical
Source
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Nov, 2004 04:13 pm
FreeDuck wrote:
I've read that 20 times now, timber, and I can't tell if you're laughing with me or at me.


With ya, and at ya FreeDuck ... and at myself and everyone else in this sorta discussion.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Nov, 2004 04:32 pm
Time for more critical self-reflection ... ?

I don't think the kind of Democrats (or liberal mode of reaction, more) the author describes here is representative of the whole of the Democratic Party -- or even its mainstream.

But it's true that I've seen more than enough of this kind of thing even just here, by posters who were perhaps not the most articulate of Democrats here, but no less loud. And I can see how that would provoke a reaction like the author's.

I think he steers dangerously clear to the stereotyping we know from Fox and Timber - but he nevertheless does have a point -- one that should give you/us pause.

Quote:
DAILY EXPRESS
Polls Apart

by Lawrence F. Kaplan

Only at TNR Online
Post date: 11.08.04

The day after the election, a friend--okay, my father--phoned to let me know me he was packing his bags for Australia. The very thought of enduring four more years of George W. Bush was too much for him to contemplate. And so it went last week, as a parade of friends and relatives, knowing full well that I supported Bush, phoned and emailed to deplore the country's ignorance. Echoing a question posed by Slate, they asked: Why do so many Americans hate Democrats? Maybe, just maybe, the answer has something to do with the fact that so many Democrats seem to hate them.

Novelist Jane Smiley's contribution to the Slate symposium is instructive: "The election results reflect the decision of the right wing to cultivate and exploit ignorance in the citizenry. ... Ignorance and bloodlust have a long tradition in the United States, especially in the red states. ... The error that progressives have consistently committed over the years is to underestimate the vitality of ignorance in America." Nor have such expressions of contempt been confined to fiction writers. The ever-reliable New York Times columnist Paul Krugman opined that "Democrats are not going to get the support of people whose votes are motivated, above all, by their opposition to abortion and gay rights (and, in the background, minority rights)" while across the page Gary Wills likened Bush voters to Al Qaeda operatives and Saddam loyalists. "Where else do we find fundamentalist zeal, a rage at secularity, religious intolerance, fear of and hatred for modernity?" he wondered.

None of this, to be sure, comes as anything new. In 1972 film critic Pauline Kael famously said: "I don't know how Richard Nixon could have won. I don't know anybody who voted for him." Over a decade later, E.L. Doctorow observed of Reagan-era America that "something poisonous has been set loose in the last several years ... something that is really rotten in America right now." During the 1990s, it was the Republicans' turn, as commentators on the right bemoaned the moral failings of an America that refused to demand the ouster of its philandering president. There is a word for this sort of condescension, and it isn't fear, concern, or anxiety about the impulses of Middle America. It is anti-Americanism.



The concept, Paul Hollander writes in his encyclopedic 1992 survey of anti-Americanism, "implies more than a critical disposition: it refers to critiques which are less than fully rational and not necessarily well founded." Critics of red America, needless to say, fancy themselves defenders of rationality. Or as Nation writer Eric Alterman puts it on his Altercation blog: "The problem is just this: Slightly more than half of the citizens of this country simply do not care about what those of us in the 'reality-based community' say or believe about anything." Neatly summarizing the views of this "reality-based community," Kerry volunteer Jessica Johnson of Cambridge, Massachusetts told The Boston Globe: "Many Americans have nothing between their ears. Americans are fat, lazy, and stupid. I don't like this country anymore."

If this is what passes for rational discourse on the left--and for too many liberals these days, it is--then just who is it that belongs to the "reality-based community" and just who is it that suffers under the weight of what the left used to call "false consciousness"? The question merits an answer, since Wills and otherwise sensible voices on the left--such as The Washington Post's E.J. Dionne, who professes himself "alarmed that so many of our fellow citizens could look the other way and not hold Bush accountable for utter incompetence in Iraq" and "amazed that a majority was not concerned about heaping a huge debt burden on our children just to give large tax breaks to the rich"--see their task as raising the level of consciousness of Americans out of step with reality. But what if their own estrangement leads not to insight, but rather to blindness and, more important, to separation from the very Americans they mean to influence?

To be alienated these days, after all, is what Todd Gitlin once described as "a rock-bottom prerequisite for membership" in an establishment of its own. That establishment, comprising much of the media, academia, the punditocracy, and indeed entire swaths of blue America, forms a cohesive community--with its own rewards, norms, and favorite enemies. And as the post-election commentary has revealed, one of those enemies happens to be mainstream America. The conceit, of course, is that none of its residents are listening when the likes of Smiley craps all over them. But they are, and have been all along. Moreover, as nearly every election going back to 1968 shows, the more liberals become estranged from Middle America, the more Middle America becomes estranged from them. The latter reaction, needless to say, generates far more votes. So long as the "reality-based community" denigrates the heartland's supposed ignorance, reality-based America will respond in kind.

Lawrence F. Kaplan is a senior editor at The New Republic.

0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Nov, 2004 04:49 pm
ehBeth wrote:
The U.S. dollar is dropping. Steadily.
The respect once held for the country internationally is slipping horribly.
The economy is having enormous difficulties.
Federal government spending is up incredibly over the past 4 years.
More people are going to food banks.


ehBeth, apart from when actively bein' rescued by The US from foreign threat, the nations currently at odds with the US never have been real big fans of The US. Overall, for the past century and more, the common attitude toward The US has been more characterized by suspicion, mistrust, envy, condescension, and outright enmity than by admiration and adulation. Damned hard to lose something one never had. The dollar's drop really has little effect on The US economy, apart from increasing import costs and lowering export costs ... not a bad thing, by any measure ... while it is in fact boosting the economies of of the nations with which we trade. The US economy is the strongest, most vibrant, most secure economic machine on the planet, and long has been. If the strongest sustained growth in over two decades, and the second-strongest growth since the end of WWII, growth which is multiples of that of Europe, is ecomomic difficulty, then by all means bring it on. Government spending indeed is up ... not an unexpected occurrence given recession recovery and a multi-front war. The rate of deficit expansion is well below troublesome highs, the overall annual deficit is a smaller percentage of GDP than it was during the '60s, '70s, '80s, and a good part of the '90s. This ain't the time of milk and honey for all, to be sure ... that's really not a feature of life-in-the-real-world. Things ain't all that bad, things could be better, things have been very much worse, and things don't seem to be goin' all that badly lookin' forward.

But then, mebbe its all perspective. Some folks focus on the future from the present, and some folks ignore the present to focus on a past utopia that never was nor ever will be.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Nov, 2004 04:54 pm
Nimh,

While I do understand the importance of playing and talking nice with the other team, you have to realize that to many of us, this:

Quote:
Novelist Jane Smiley's contribution to the Slate symposium is instructive: "The election results reflect the decision of the right wing to cultivate and exploit ignorance in the citizenry. ... Ignorance and bloodlust have a long tradition in the United States, especially in the red states. ... The error that progressives have consistently committed over the years is to underestimate the vitality of ignorance in America." Nor have such expressions of contempt been confined to fiction writers. The ever-reliable New York Times columnist Paul Krugman opined that "Democrats are not going to get the support of people whose votes are motivated, above all, by their opposition to abortion and gay rights (and, in the background, minority rights)" while across the page Gary Wills likened Bush voters to Al Qaeda operatives and Saddam loyalists. "Where else do we find fundamentalist zeal, a rage at secularity, religious intolerance, fear of and hatred for modernity?" he wondered.


is true.

We hate that this is true. I hate having to bash fellow Americans. Hate it. But with every passing day, there is more evidence that these kinds of ideas hold much more water than one can just dismiss as 'hate speech.'

What are we supposed to do? Play nice with the people who (in our opinions) are consistently making the wrong decisions?

I realized while writing this that I don't know anything about you, and therefore wouldn't presume that you don't know anything about me. But; if you do not, let me tell you, realizing that the America you were taught about and the reality of America (and it's actions globally) are so disparate that is is ludicrous, is a very stressful and straining thing.... I'm not surprised that people lash out. The problem is we have to sit back and watch the people who disagree with us f*ck it up even more. It's depressing.

We lost this election for a lot of reasons, but I don't think 'insulting' the common man was one of them.

Just my 2 cents.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Nov, 2004 05:26 pm
Why is it that making observations about traits of the left is stereotyping, but the observations about traits of the right is not?
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dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Nov, 2004 05:49 pm
while I have seen a great deal of stereotyping of the dems and the repubs, I have seen little (if any) sterotyping of either the left or the right. Peobably due to the fact that neither side of the political isle recognizes that party politics in american has lost such definitions in their zeal towards misunderstanding of basic political philosophy.
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Nov, 2004 06:17 pm
Neither Party, nor the body of subscribers thereto in either instance, is uniquely capable of misunderstanding and mischaracterizing the other.
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Nov, 2004 06:44 pm
I thought that's what I said Timber.
0 Replies
 
cannistershot
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Nov, 2004 06:49 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
Why is it that making observations about traits of the left is stereotyping, but the observations about traits of the right is not?



Anyone?
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Nov, 2004 06:53 pm
Cannister - rhetorical question? Straw man?
0 Replies
 
cannistershot
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Nov, 2004 06:59 pm
Flying monkey?
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Nov, 2004 07:06 pm
Burning Issue or just a Flaming Straw Man?

http://images.burningman.com/gallery/naturalturn.17407.jpg

Laughing
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Nov, 2004 07:29 pm
timberlandko wrote:
FreeDuck wrote:
I've read that 20 times now, timber, and I can't tell if you're laughing with me or at me.


With ya, and at ya FreeDuck ... and at myself and everyone else in this sorta discussion.


In that case I join you. Laughing
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Nov, 2004 07:42 pm
The previous page of this thread contains about as much foolishness as is possible to stuff into a single page.

But let's take this one bit from the NR commentary...
Quote:
None of this, to be sure, comes as anything new. In 1972 film critic Pauline Kael famously said: "I don't know how Richard Nixon could have won. I don't know anybody who voted for him." Over a decade later, E.L. Doctorow observed of Reagan-era America that "something poisonous has been set loose in the last several years ... something that is really rotten in America right now." During the 1990s, it was the Republicans' turn, as commentators on the right bemoaned the moral failings of an America that refused to demand the ouster of its philandering president. There is a word for this sort of condescension, and it isn't fear, concern, or anxiety about the impulses of Middle America. It is anti-Americanism.


Look at that last sentence. How could this possibly be true, or even coherent?

Is it possible for someone born and raised in America to be anti-American? Is it possible for 20% of Americans to be anti-American? How about 48%? Or 70%?

And what does 'middle america' mean? Was Lincoln, when fighting against the traditions and values of slavery, guilty of anti-Americanism? Were John and Bobby Kennedy guilty of anti-Americanism in working to overturn racism and segregation? And in contrast, was George Wallace the true American? Are Baptists more truly American than Buddhists or Scientologists or Jews? Is an uneducated white Christian auto mechanic from Lubbock more of an American than a Japanese-American with a doctorate in Civic Planning who teaches yoga on weeknights and who volunteers with a needle-exchange program?
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Nov, 2004 07:48 pm
When some idiot accuses me of being anti American just because I dissent from the administration's policies I feel I am being attacked by a very dangerous person, the true subversive in the thread. That sort of person prefers dictatorship over freedom.
0 Replies
 
PDiddie
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Nov, 2004 07:55 pm
In the wake of the election, leading Democrats are debating what adjustments to make. Here are the leading possibilities:

1. Reach out to social conservatives by embracing a pro-life, pro-gun, pro religion-in-the-schools, anti-gay, anti- evolution agenda, rename party the "Me, Too Party."

2. Reach out to neo-conservatives by embracing a unilateralist, pre-emptive war strategy, then find somebody who's never been in a war to explain it.

3. Reach out to business community with anti-tax, anti-regulation, anti-environment agenda financed by massive borrowing, rename party the "Federalist-Whig Party."

4. Wait until tax on capital gains is abolished (sometime in early February), sell the fabulous new Democratic Party headquarters building to the Republican Party (they can afford it), divvy up the profit and skip town.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Nov, 2004 09:00 pm
Or, how 'bout this, PDid--

Figure out what the hell you want to do with the country--

Tell people what that is--

Set out to do it--

Without demonizing the other half of the country, who may respectfully disagree.
0 Replies
 
PDiddie
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Nov, 2004 09:12 pm
F*ck that... :wink:
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Nov, 2004 09:18 pm
OK. I guess you're back to this, then...


PDiddie wrote:


1. Reach out to social conservatives by embracing a pro-life, pro-gun, pro religion-in-the-schools, anti-gay, anti- evolution agenda, rename party the "Me, Too Party."

2. Reach out to neo-conservatives by embracing a unilateralist, pre-emptive war strategy, then find somebody who's never been in a war to explain it.

3. Reach out to business community with anti-tax, anti-regulation, anti-environment agenda financed by massive borrowing, rename party the "Federalist-Whig Party."

4. Wait until tax on capital gains is abolished (sometime in early February), sell the fabulous new Democratic Party headquarters building to the Republican Party (they can afford it), divvy up the profit and skip town.
0 Replies
 
 

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