Okay, Dems, What Went Wrong? And How Can We Fix It?

Freeduck writes

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I don't know. While I've heard a lot about religious voters after the election, I really don't remember anyone talking about it that much (other than maybe on A2K) during the campaign? I'm kind of puzzled by the 'perceived nonstop verbal assault on the religious throughout this campaign'. Can anybody clue me in? What exactly did the dem campaign say and do to religious voters during this campaign that so offended them?

Just prowl through the A2K threads for awhile and see how many instances there are of derisive comments re the President's faith and also those who hold religious beliefs, particularly Christian. This was happening all across the country in left wingish editorials, the European press, on the web, etc. McGentrix posted a thread some time back with an essay stating that dissing the president and other believers as somehow being religious nuts, fanatic, homophobic, pro-elimination of women's rights, anti-separation of Church and State, etc. etc. etc. would backlash. It is quite possible that it did.

The gay marriage thing--specifically changing the definition of what marriage is--was very likely a factor; however, I would guess that those voting Democrats were almost as likely to oppose gay marriage as were those voting Republican. That is most likely why Kerry came out opposed to gay marriage. Ditto for abortion issues--this is not a right/left issue but cuts across the political spectrum--it's just that the left is more likely to accuse the right of subversive tactics re abortion.

But diss the President for his religious faith which the religious recognizes to be reasonable and moderate, you do so at risk of energizing the religious who are only willing to be pushed so far.

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I never offered any allegation of "non-stop barrage". And I don't claim The Democratic Party has mounted any institutional assault on Religion and The Religious. I note that many on The Left assert there is a nefarious influence of The Religious Right, or whatever they term it, disparaging Bush The Greater for being a "Man of Faith" who "considers himself ordained by God" ... largely, the folks pressing this are the same folks who pressed the National Guard issue and who alledge Bush The Greater to be a "Dry Drunk", a "Cokehead", an "Idiot", and a "Pawn of the rich", among other ridiculous calumnies. That such ideas have great currency among some - even many - Democrats is undeniable, and roundly evidenced here on these boards.

And, IMHO, it is precisely such line of "argument", coupled with the patently absurd "We wuz robbed" meme, which weighs most heavily toward the repeatedly demonstrated, and increasing, failure of The Democratic Party to engage a majority of The Electorate.

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All I'm getting here is a bunch of generalized stuff that says more about both of your opinions about the other party than it does about the other party itself. I guess I have my answer.

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The last I agree with except I don't agree that it is patently absurd.

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Actually, fox, you had some things worth responding to. What I think is that the gay marriage issue had a lot to do with the christian right feeling under attack. So you get points for that. It makes more sense that those on that end might feel the pressure of that and extrapolate.

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I think though, Freeduck, the gay marriage issue has received more credit than it deserves in swinging the pro-religious to Bush. My sense, and this is borne out by the exit polls, is that it was generally a feeling attacks on traditional values for marriage, family, the sanctity of life, a sense of propriety and decency (to wit the party of Hollywood celebs who dissed the president and his supporters in most vulgar terms), indoctrination in education, a desire to ratchet back some of the content prevalent in media entertainment, etc. etc. etc. that tipped the scales. There is a limit to what any of us are willing to tolerate and I think a careful analysis of the 2004 election would show that the religious felt they have reached that limit on several fronts.

Couple that with efforts to demean, ridicule, and disrespect those very values as reflected in the President and his supporters, and I think that drove maybe several hundred thousand if not millions to the polls.

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I think that the pro-religious have been pro-Republican for as long as I can remember, and nothing has changed. The issues you mention are ones that have been talked about with outrage in ultra religious homes -- like the one I grew up in -- for a very long time. But I think that the right wing in this country perpetuate the idea that they are under attack by overhyping these things.

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FreeDuck, there's a cartoon over HERE I find pertinent to this discussion.

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FreeDuck - don't you recall the civil rights movement? very church-based, in a lot of communities. When I grew up, the Democrats were the church-goers, the people who were true Christians, who acted as they believed Jesus would want them to. Hippies were Christians, not Republicans.

Republicans were business people, who had no time for church or God or Jesus, unless they were Baptists, in which case church was about money in any case.

Thinking of Republicans as Christians still seems bizarre to me. Until I think of the Old Testament, of course, which is not about christianity.

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It's all in perspective. I don't know how old you are, Freeduck, but 30 to 40 years ago, not so long in the grand scheme of things, the Democrats were the party of of traditional values. During the counter culture revolution of the 60's and 70's, the more radical left wing took control of the Democrat party and have steered it way left of center ever since. Unfortunately the far left views traditional values with derision and contempt and thus separates itself from the center and right who aren't ready to dissolve all they value and hold dear. Whatever side you are on in the gay marriage issue for instance, some gay rights groups abetted by some activist judges are pushing for the definition of marriage to be changed. That isn't hype. It is a reality. It is unfair to say those who value traditional marraige are overhyping it and making it a bigger deal than it actually is. You can go right down the line on every issue and see that it isn't hype but the choice between preserving a policy/law/tradition versus changing that policy/law/tradition.

Sometimes change is beneficial, important, necessary. Sometimes it isn't. But if one side tells the other side that they are evil, corrupt, stupid, ignorant, ill informed, etc. etc. etc. because of the position they hold, you can bet you'll make a lot of those people determined to defend their position or at least mad enough to go vote.

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timberlandko wrote:

FreeDuck, there's a cartoon over HERE I find pertinent to this discussion.

I saw that Timber. It almost makes my point.

My whole beef is with this notion that the religious people have had enough of us liberals with our trench coats on, flashing them, and decided to rise up and show us commies who's boss. While it's obvious that the right wing religious conservatives were mobilized, I agree with the cartoonist.

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ehBeth wrote:

Republicans were business people, who had no time for church or God or Jesus, unless they were Baptists, in which case church was about money in any case.

Bingo. I said pro-religious rather than Christian for a reason.

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Foxfyre wrote:

Unfortunately the far left views traditional values with derision and contempt and thus separates itself from the center and right who aren't ready to dissolve all they value and hold dear. Whatever side you are on in the gay marriage issue for instance, some gay rights groups abetted by some activist judges are pushing for the definition of marriage to be changed. That isn't hype. It is a reality. It is unfair to say those who value traditional marraige are overhyping it and making it a bigger deal than it actually is. You can go right down the line on every issue and see that it isn't hype but the choice between preserving a policy/law/tradition versus changing that policy/law/tradition.

This is kind of what I meant. The idea that the far left, which at any minute you can merge with the whole left, views traditional values with derision and contempt is something that is perpetuated by certain people. The thing with gay marriage strikes me as something that was overblown and can be discussed on another thread.

Quote:

Sometimes change is beneficial, important, necessary. Sometimes it isn't. But if one side tells the other side that they are evil, corrupt, stupid, ignorant, ill informed, etc. etc. etc. because of the position they hold, you can bet you'll make a lot of those people determined to defend their position or at least mad enough to go vote.

That was really well said. Unfortunately I think I am the only one who sees the irony in it.

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Irony is where you find it, FreeDuck Laughing

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I've read that 20 times now, timber, and I can't tell if you're laughing with me or at me.

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I'm finding it truly bizarre that Foxfyre thinks she has any realistic read on what anyone who is near the centre, or to the left of her, thinks.

If she honestly believes the things she posts, it's a good explanation for why the U.S. is in its current state.

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ehBeth wrote:

I'm finding it truly bizarre that Foxfyre thinks she has any realistic read on what anyone who is near the centre, or to the left of her, thinks.

If she honestly believes the things she posts, it's a good explanation for why the U.S. is in its current state.

What state is America in? I see it as the greatest country in the world.

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what state? let's see. let's start with:

The U.S. dollar is dropping. Steadily.
The respect once held for the country internationally is slipping horribly.
The economy is having enormous difficulties.
Federal government spending is up incredibly over the past 4 years.
More people are going to food banks.

Yup, things are going very well. Not.

cannistershot, I have many American friends. I grew up near the border, and live close to it now. There are many things I love and admire about Americans and America. The blinders some Americans are wearing in regard to what has happened to their country in the past 4 years frighten me.

Okay, Dems, What Went Wrong? And How Can We Fix It?

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