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Bush supporters' aftermath thread

 
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Jan, 2006 05:03 pm
If you feel that way about it Walter, why do you stay with the Catholic Church?
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Jan, 2006 05:12 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
If you feel that way about it Walter, why do you stay with the Catholic Church?


I don't change my belief just because the Pope(s) have such an opinion about a Swiss psychoanalyst and his ideas.

I didn't say that I worship Jung - actually, I don't agree with a lot.

But what I would like is that the leaders of my church would accept more that others have various different ideas which might be worth reflecteing.

Since don't do so, we have to work towards that - as the church from below.

This just as an answer to Foxfyre's question. Genrally I don't discuss my belief's whys and wheres here.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Jan, 2006 05:34 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:

ps. I believe this is a useful distinction. For example, as much as I have disagreed with certain opinions/posts of yours, George, I would never categorize your posts as stupid or ignorant, for they clearly are not. That cannot be said about many posters here(probably including myself from time to time, I'm no saint) and I'm not afraid to say what I think when people clearly aren't thinking their comments through fully. I realize that there is always a polite/non-personal way to bring this up, but some people don't understand subtlety, and I frankly don't have the time to care.


Thanks for the kind comments. I don't always live up to my own standards for mutual respect and consideration, but I do try. I still think it best to hold back on personal criticism unless one has been directly offended. On more than one occasion here I have learned something I didn't know or gained understanding of a new point of view from a poster whom I had once written off as stupid or ignorant.
0 Replies
 
hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Jan, 2006 05:35 pm
bush supporters
walter : have you read fr. andrew greeley's book...MAKING OF THE POPE 2005... ?
while i'm not a catholic, i did read most of the book recently. i had taken it out from the library and did not finish it at first try - will surely read the remaining chapters fairly soon (i got my new computer going after some teething troubles, so should have some time to spare).
the way i understand his reasoning seems to be much like yours; he says that just because the hierarchy of the church has difficulty adjusting to modern times is no reason for him to leave the church - indeed he wants to work harder to make his voice heard .
i certainly enjoyed his writing. hbg
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Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Jan, 2006 08:40 pm
Magginkat wrote:
As for Ticomaya and his comment I have no idea why he thinks he is in my sights as I have very seldom ever made a comment on anything he has posted. Indeed, because he is such an arrogant know-it-all, I usually don't even read his posts. [/b]


... and apparently the posts of mine you do read you don't read very well. I do not believe I am "in your sights," and am unclear why you jumped to the unwarranted conclusion that I did.

This is what I said:

Ticomaya wrote:
Magginkat seems to be a practiced stalker. You are not the only one in her sights.


What about that caused you to conclude I was referring to myself?
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Jan, 2006 08:22 am
Ah good, we're back.

I've got a couple of items for the pop-eyed rabid right among you.
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Jan, 2006 08:30 am
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Heh, Ledeen is a traitor if there ever was one.

Cycloptichorn


I think you need to read the legal definition of treason.
It is the only crime defined in the constitution,and has a very specific meaning.
To many people,on both sides,like to throw that word around,without knowing what it means.

For your information,it is defined in Art.3 Sec 3 of the Constitution this way...

Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court.

The Congress shall have power to declare the Punishment of Treason, but no Attainder of Treason shall work Corruption of Blood, or Forfeiture except during the Life of the Person attainted.

Thats from here...
http://www.usconstitution.net/const.html#A3Sec3
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Jan, 2006 12:12 pm
mysteryman wrote:

I think you need to read the legal definition of treason.


Since 'definition' means legalise "meeting the requirements under law", it's not done with just quoting the relevant law.

A quick look at a legal dictionary gives this explanation:
Quote:
Treason requires overt acts and includes the giving of government security secrets to other countries, even if friendly, when the information could harm American security. Treason can include revealing to an antagonistic country secrets such as the design of a bomber being built by a private company for the Defense Department. Treason may include "espionage" (spying for a foreign power or doing damage to the operation of the government and its agencies, particularly those involved in security) but is separate and worse than "sedition," which involves a conspiracy to upset the operation of the government
.source: Law.com Dictionary
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Jan, 2006 01:15 pm
I'm giving the windbag awards at the Alito hearing to Joe Biden who allowed Judge Alito to talk for a whipping 4 minutes of the 30 minutes Biden was allocated yesterday, and to Ted Kennedy who expounded so uneloquently that his request for 2 extra minutes had even the Democrats groaning. That both of these....um senators....presume a moral superiority over Judge Alito is almost laughable.

I will have to say that Kohl and Feinstein, both Democrats, were exemplary in their conduct however and actually let Judge Alito do most of the talking.

Overall, however, Judge Alito is hitting one homerun after another and the Senators are looking like.......how do I put this politely?

I'm sorry, there is no way to put it politely.
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Jan, 2006 01:23 pm
It's true that they either look like blow hards or ass lickers, depending on which side of the aisle they're on. I was fond of Feinstein's questioning yesterday -- didn't see Kohl -- but not because she let Alito do the talking. I thought she asked pointed, relevent questions that she actually was hoping for an answer to, rather than trying to make statements to justify a preconceived notion, to which the judge can only agree or disagree.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Jan, 2006 01:55 pm
mysteryman wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Heh, Ledeen is a traitor if there ever was one.

Cycloptichorn


I think you need to read the legal definition of treason.
It is the only crime defined in the constitution,and has a very specific meaning.
To many people,on both sides,like to throw that word around,without knowing what it means.

For your information,it is defined in Art.3 Sec 3 of the Constitution this way...

Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court.

The Congress shall have power to declare the Punishment of Treason, but no Attainder of Treason shall work Corruption of Blood, or Forfeiture except during the Life of the Person attainted.

Thats from here...
http://www.usconstitution.net/const.html#A3Sec3


I know exactly what a traitor is, thank you very much. Ledeen most certainly is. He and a Mr. Gorbanifar, shall we say, faked up some intelligence that could have been quite crucial to decisions to go to war...

http://rawstory.com/news/2005/Backchannels_used_to_bypass_U.S._government_0111.html

Quote:
Spurious attempt to tie Iran, Iraq to nuclear arms plot bypassed U.S. intelligence channels
Larisa Alexandrovna
Published: January 11, 2006


Several U.S. and foreign intelligence sources, along with investigators, say an Iranian exile with ties to Iran-Contra peddled a bizarre tale of stolen uranium to governments on both sides of the Atlantic in the spring and summer of 2003.

The story that was peddled -- which detailed how an Iranian intelligence team infiltrated Iraq prior to the start of the war in March of 2003, and stole enriched uranium to use in their own nuclear weapons program -- was part of an attempt to implicate both countries in a WMD plot. It later emerged that the Iranian exile was trying to collect money for his tales, sources say.

By all credible accounts, the source of this dubious tale was Manucher Ghorbanifar, an Iranian arms dealer who used middle-men and cut-outs to create the appearance of several sources. Ghorbanifar played a key role in the Iran-Contra scandal that threatened to take down the Reagan administration, in which the U.S. sold arms to Iran and diverted the proceeds to Nicaraguan militants.

While the various threads of the larger story of Ghorbanifar and his intelligence peddling began in December of 2001, meetings in Paris in 2003 are far more important in illustrating -- as a microcosm -- the larger difficulties faced in untangling the facts relating to global intelligence trafficking.

Tall Tale of Uranium

During the spring and summer of 2003, Congressman Curt Weldon (R-PA) made several visits to Paris to meet with a source believed to have important military intelligence information.

Unbeknownst to Weldon, the informant, who he would dub simply "Ali," was already peddling a tale of stolen uranium traveling between Iraq and Iran that had been deemed false by most intelligence agencies.

As reported by American Prospect and confirmed by intelligence sources, Ali is a pseudonym used to identify a former minister in the Shah's Iran, Fereidoun Mahdavi. Mahdavi himself is a secretary to Ghorbanifar, the originating source of the uranium fable.

The American Prospect's reporters wrote, "'Ali' is actually a cipher for Manucher Ghorbanifar, the notorious Iranian arms dealer and accused intelligence fabricator -- and the potential instrument of another potentially dangerous manipulation of American policy in the Persian Gulf region."

The Washington Post discusses Ali as follows: "'These secrets,' he says, come from 'an impeccable clandestine source,' whom Weldon code-names 'Ali,' an Iranian exile living in Paris who is a close associate of Manucher Gorbanifar. Gorbanifar is a well-known Iranian exile whom the CIA branded as a fabricator during the 1980s but who was used by the Reagan White House as a middleman for the arms-for-hostages deal with Iran."

According to several intelligence sources on both sides of the Atlantic, the tale that "Ali" tells Weldon and others was as intricate as it was false.

"Ali provided information that indicated Iranian intelligence had sent a team to Baghdad to extract highly enriched uranium (weapons grade) from a stockpile hidden by Saddam Hussein," one intelligence source said.

Ali asserted that an Iranian intelligence team had infiltrated Iraq prior to the start of the war and stole enriched uranium to use in their own nuclear weapons program, sources say.

Ghorbanifar said "the team successfully extracted the stockpile but on the way back to Iran contracted radiation poisoning," one source remarked.

Upon learning this information Weldon says that he immediately notified then-CIA director George Tenet.

"Tenet appeared interested, even enthusiastic about evaluating Ali and establishing a working relationship with him," Weldon wrote in his book, Countdown to Terror. "He agreed to send his top spy, Stephen Kappes, the deputy director of operations, along with me to Paris for another debriefing of Ali.

"On the day of our scheduled second meeting with Ali in Paris, Kappes bowed out, claiming that "other commitments" compelled him to cancel," Weldon continued. "Later, the CIA claimed to have met with Ali independently. But I discovered this to be untrue... Incredibly, I learned that the CIA had apparently asked French intelligence to silence Ali."

But according to the Prospect and several sources in intelligence abroad, the CIA did investigate, as did the Department of Defense.

The CIA, understanding Ali to be Ghorbanifar, did not think him a credible source.

Intelligence sources and a source close to the UN security counsel tell RAW STORY Murray took Ali (either Ghorbanifar or his agent) to Iraq in order to retrace the footsteps of the alleged mission in which the uranium was stolen from Saddam's own stockpile and taken back to Iran. In the end, sources say, the entire event proved a wild goose chase because Ali's earlier clarity all but evaporated.

"Soon it became apparent that Ali and his sources were fabricators and were trying to extract large sums of money," one intelligence source said.

Weldon's office declined to comment for the record after several extended conversations. RAW STORY delayed the article for a day to give Weldon's office a chance to comment.

The neoconservative movement has long expressed an inherent distrust of the CIA. Many neoconservatives note that the agency undercounted Russia's nuclear stockpile in the waning days of the Soviet Union, and believe that it routinely underestimates foreign threats.

Weldon, who had been led to believe the CIA never opened an investigation into the information he provided, took his case directly to Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld. Rumsfeld then pressured the CIA to investigate further.

"CIA reluctantly, after pressure from Rumsfeld, followed up by detaching one of their weapons experts from the team that was hunting WMD in Iraq," one former CIA officer who asked to remain anonymous said.

Sources say that this second investigation resulted in another wild goose chase. The question of motive, however, seems to either have been entirely missed or simply glossed over.

Weldon seen caught in web

By all accounts, Weldon seems to be more of an innocent bystander taken in by an internationally known con-man and the lure of spook-like activities than an inside player with an agenda or material participant in these events.

The Ali composite seems to have used Weldon as a conduit by which to provide the CIA with information.

There was good reason to be cautious of Manucher Ghorbanifahr, who, along with his secretary, made up the "cipher" of Ali.

The CIA had already had issued two burn notices against Ghorbanifahr as early as 1984 and his role in Iran-Contra as a middleman between the hardline neoconservative and another Iran-Contra figure, Michael Ledeen.

In his book, Weldon said he met Ghorbanifahr after being approached by a Democratic congressman.

"On March 7, 2003, a former Democratic member of Congress and my good friend Ron Klink called and asked to meet with me. . . . The source was Ali. My contacts with him were at first by telephone. Subsequently, Ali sent faxes to my home on a regular basis from different hotels in Paris, where he lives in exile. Eventually, as the information became more detailed and critical, I decided on a face-to-face meeting." (Countdown to Terror, p. 4).
Why such highly important information would be provided to Klink and then Weldon as opposed to the chairman of the House Intelligence Committee remains unclear.

Neoconservative Leeden explains meetings

Ghorbanifahr has strong ties to Michael Ledeen, and both of them were involved in a controversial meeting in Rome of 2001. That meeting, whose purpose is unknown, included high level officials in Italian intelligence, Iranian nationals and Larry Franklin, a former Defense Department analyst who current pled guilty to charges of passing classified information to Israel and Iran. Also in attendance was Middle East expert Harold Rhode, also under investigation for charges of passing classified information to Israel and Iran. Both Rhode and Franklin worked for Feith in the Office of Special plans.

Ledeen was consulting for OSP when all three were dispatched to Rome in 2001. He says the meetings had nothing to do with Iraq.

"The Rome meetings had nothing whatsoever to do with Iraq, but with Iran and Afghanistan," Ledeen wrote in an email. "I don't think a single word was pronounced, by anyone, on Iraq."

Later, in a phone conversation, Ledeen explained that the Rome meeting had to do with what his sources told him was going on on the ground in Afghanistan, namely that Iran was allegedly fueling the Afghan insurgency.

"I reported this back," Ledeen said. "This information saved American lives."

According to James Risen's New York Times article dated December of 2003, Ledeen was a paid consultant to the National Security Council at the time of the meeting. Risen reports that National Security Advisor Stephen Hadley was informed of the plans for the meeting and that Hadley expressed reservations given Ledeen and Ghorbanifahr's background.

The Office of Special plans, however, authorized the meeting without notifying any other agency, violating protocol. They did not notify the Rome CIA station chief or the U.S. Ambassador to Italy, Mel Sembler.

Ledeen, however, says that Hadley had authorized the trip. This would also implicate Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, then-National Security Advisor.

"Hadley authorized it and he could not have done so without reporting it to his direct superior," said Ledeen.

Ledeen also denies that he had anything to do beyond that first meeting in December of 2001.

"I was involved in one meeting, in Rome, in December 2001," Leeden said. "Period."

Paris, Again

The uranium story peddled to Weldon is strikingly similar to the story told to Ledeen.

"I approached a variety of government officials, lots of them, and told them that I had a reliable source that told me about how and where the Iranians stole enriched uranium from Iraq," Ledeen said.

Ledeen says his source then went on to explain that the "stash" was buried in an underground facility and recounted, much like Weldon did, that neither the CIA, the Defense Department or the State Department would listen to his concerns.

Asked if his source was Ghorbanifahr, Ledeen said "No," but was unable to tell the identity of his source for fear said source might be "put in danger."

Who arranged the meetings and their ultimate purpose remains unclear. One intelligence official, however, described the series of events and the market of intelligence trafficking as follows: "If you were going to launder intel to make up a war, you could easily send some fool on an errand."


To me, knowingly participating in the passing of fake WMD information to our gov't, perhaps to make the case for war, is against the purposes of the US and he should be called what he is; a traitor. Expect to see his name again in the coming months.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Jan, 2006 03:29 pm
Is there a bigger blowhard in Washington than Ted Kennedy?

On a related note, I just read that Kennedy has a Portuguese Water Dog named "Splash," who is his co-protagonist in "My Senator and Me: A Dogs-Eye View of Washington, D.C.," to be published in May.

Splash ...

You just can't make this stuff up.
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Jan, 2006 03:34 pm
Clinton should name his next dog "Spot."
0 Replies
 
JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Jan, 2006 03:42 pm
Ticomaya wrote:
Is there a bigger blowhard in Washington than Ted Kennedy?

On a related note, I just read that Kennedy has a Portuguese Water Dog named "Splash," who is his co-protagonist in "My Senator and Me: A Dogs-Eye View of Washington, D.C.," to be published in May.

Splash ...

You just can't make this stuff up.


Ugh. Only thing worse would be him naming it Mary Jo.
0 Replies
 
JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Jan, 2006 03:43 pm
LOL @ "Spot"

Smile
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Jan, 2006 04:29 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
I'm giving the windbag awards at the Alito hearing to Joe Biden who allowed Judge Alito to talk for a whipping 4 minutes of the 30 minutes Biden was allocated yesterday, and to Ted Kennedy who expounded so uneloquently that his request for 2 extra minutes had even the Democrats groaning. That both of these....um senators....presume a moral superiority over Judge Alito is almost laughable.

I will have to say that Kohl and Feinstein, both Democrats, were exemplary in their conduct however and actually let Judge Alito do most of the talking.
Agreed on all counts. It facinates me that Kennedy can rant about the importance of protecting the little guy who has neither money nor status when everyone in the room knows his family money and status is the only reason he's a Senator rather than an ex-convict.

Feinstein, who I expected to behave worse, did an admirable job of trying to dig out the honest answers we all want to hear. It was his answers to her hard questions and solid logic that I found most helpful in accessing the man's performance. His statuesque patience while listening to the blowhards and ass-kissers taught me nothing. A+ for Feinstein.

Alito himself impresses me more each day. While I have reservations about his past allegiance to would be Pro-Life Policy makers; I'm becoming increasingly convinced that the man's intellect is too great to be swayed by partisan loyalty when the BIG QUESTION visits the court. While I think it's quite possible he could vote to weaken Roe Vs. Wade, I do not think he would vote to overturn it. My gut instinct tells me he allied himself sufficiently to get to the top, but once there; he will make every decision absent partisan loyalty... and further that this is the most we could ask from any Supreme Court Justice.

I could be wrong; but it's becoming increasingly clear to me that this is just a dog and pony show and the man will eventually be confirmed. I further believe that the liberal minded folks, who certainly can't be thrilled with the nomination, could do a damn sight worse than Judge Alito's confirmation.
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Jan, 2006 04:59 pm
Ticomaya wrote:
Clinton should name his next dog "Spot."


Good one. Smile

It would certainly be a diversion from the main events of the moment.
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Jan, 2006 05:01 pm
Ticomaya wrote:
Is there a bigger blowhard in Washington than Ted Kennedy?

On a related note, I just read that Kennedy has a Portuguese Water Dog named "Splash," who is his co-protagonist in "My Senator and Me: A Dogs-Eye View of Washington, D.C.," to be published in May.

Splash ...

You just can't make this stuff up.


I imagine the irony of that choice of name was not lost on Kennedy and his team.

Not that I approve of their taste, nor indeed of them.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Jan, 2006 06:08 pm
Ticomaya wrote:
Is there a bigger blowhard in Washington than Ted Kennedy?



Could be, but I doubt it.

Of course the average blowhard in Washington would be a colossal blowhard anywhere else.
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Jan, 2006 08:45 pm
Enjoying a rare moment here to agree with O'Bill, completely.
0 Replies
 
 

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