Ou est la morceau de craie.
blatham wrote:Ou est la morceau de craie.
En haut le professeur âne
Now we're powdering diapers?
Finn d'Abuzz wrote:...and searching for a sense of humor
Finn d'Abuzz wrote:blatham wrote:Ou est la morceau de craie.
En haut le professeur âne
When I find such sense of humour, I prefer surrender...(or eat cheese)
Francis wrote:Finn d'Abuzz wrote:...and searching for a sense of humor
Finn d'Abuzz wrote:blatham wrote:Ou est la morceau de craie.
En haut le professeur âne
When I find such sense of humour, I prefer surrender...(or eat cheese)
See! I knew he meant me, not you Walter.
Francis, being French, you will always prefer surrender. Whether or not you eat and enoy cheese, I will acknowledge, is a personal preference.
McGentrix wrote:Wikipedia on concentration camps
A concentration camp is a large detention center created for political opponents, aliens, specific ethnic or religious groups, civilians of a critical war-zone, or other groups of people, often during a war. The term refers to situations where the internees are persons selected for their conformance to broad criteria without judicial process, rather than having been judged as individuals. Camps for prisoners of war are usually considered separately from this category, although informally (and in some other languages) they may also be called concentration camps. The word "concentration" indicates a regional concentration, but it also implies the crowded, and often unhealthy, state of the facilities.
They were an innovation of the British during the Boer War, Tens of Thousands of Africaners starved to death in them then.
I don't think it would be fair to describe the American camps used for the internment of our west coast Japanese citizens in those terms.
McGentrix wrote:
Wikipedia on concentration camps
TA concentration camp is a large detention center created for political opponents, aliens, specific ethnic or religious groups, civilians of a critical war-zone, or other groups of people, often during a war. The term refers to situations where the internees are persons selected for their conformance to broad criteria without judicial process, rather than having been judged as individuals. Camps for prisoners of war are usually considered separately from this category, although informally (and in some other languages) they may also be called concentration camps. The word "concentration" indicates a regional concentration, but it also implies the crowded, and often unhealthy, state of the facilities.
This is one of the few times I agree with McG's post on a2k. I have highlighted why the camps in the US can be called "concentration camps." I have lived in one, and have learned the history of what happened in most of them; all of those that disagree have no first hand experience.
georgeob1 wrote:
I don't think it would be fair to describe the American camps used for the internment of our west coast Japanese citizens in those terms.
So you consider the terminology of e.g. the Japanese American National Museum and the Dayton School of Law to be unfair (just to name those two I've quoted here)?
[/quote]
No Walter. I'm not too worried about the trermonology you or anyone uses on these matters.
I merely note that mass starvation was a prominent feature of the British and German camps, and that it decidedly was not a feature of ours. I also noted that is isn't fair to fail to make this distinction, or more to the point, to obscure it by the careless (deliberately or otherwise) use of terminology.
Do you object to this point?
georgeob1 wrote:McGentrix wrote:Wikipedia on concentration camps
A concentration camp is a large detention center created for political opponents, aliens, specific ethnic or religious groups, civilians of a critical war-zone, or other groups of people, often during a war. The term refers to situations where the internees are persons selected for their conformance to broad criteria without judicial process, rather than having been judged as individuals. Camps for prisoners of war are usually considered separately from this category, although informally (and in some other languages) they may also be called concentration camps. The word "concentration" indicates a regional concentration, but it also implies the crowded, and often unhealthy, state of the facilities.
They were an innovation of the British during the Boer War, Tens of Thousands of Africaners starved to death in them then.
I don't think it would be fair to describe the American camps used for the internment of our west coast Japanese citizens in those terms.
George, you are so unreasonable in your anti-Britishness.
The KLs in South Africa were humanitarian in conception, as stated here:
"In the English-speaking world, the term "concentration camp" was first used to describe camps operated by the British in South Africa during the 1899-1902 Second Boer War. Originally conceived as a form of humanitarian aid to the families whose farms had been destroyed in the fighting, the camps were later used to confine and control large numbers of civilians in areas of Boer guerilla activity....."
No. First of all, our country took away our constitutional rights as citizens of this country - born and bred. Secondly, our concentration camps had bobbed wired fence with army guards that have shot and killed those in the camp. Thirdly, most families have lost whatever we could not carry into the camps. Our mother with three young children was responsible for us. That was criminal behavior of our government against citizens of this country. Forth, many young men from the camps volunteered into the US army to serve our country, and was the most decorated during WWII. Fifth, We lived in tar-papered shacks in areas where we had no sidewalks or roads with snow during the winter months. Sixth, When our solders returned from the Pacific and European wars, some were still treated as the enemy "No Japs."
Some people will never understand.
I'm not defending (or opposing for that matter) the forcible detentionof Japanese American citizens during WWII. They were indeed forcibly confined in camps that can accurately be described as Concentration camps. It is also true that the quick and preemptory manner in which they were rounded up caused most to lose proiperty they had worked hard to accumulate.
However, I do point out the truth that unlike the majority of examples of 'concentration camps' used in various places by various nations (notably including Japan) there was not mass starvation and death in those in America. To fail to make this important distinction is itself deceptive.
McTag,
I'm not really anti British (though I was raised by Irish immigrant parents to mistrust them.) However, I do believe you should read more extensively about the history of the Boer War. There were many motives for the creation of the camps, among them those you cited. Another was to depopulate the farms that provided sustinence to the Boer warriors and control and concentrate the population. Whether by design or merely the fortunes of a bitterly fought war, there was indeed mass starvation of Boers in these camps.
Referencing '[i]Death Camps[/i], georgeob1 wrote: ... They were an innovation of the British during the Boer War, Tens of Thousands of Africaners starved to death in them then ...
I believe you'll find the concept of "Death Camps" rather predates the halcyon days of Churchill's youth; as referenced
HERE (about halfway down a fairly long post), the rise of Christianity under the aegis of the 4th Century Roman Emperor Constantius II had something to do with the development of the idea. But to avoid putting too fine a point on American culpability, one need look no further than our own Civil War, in the example of
Andersonville and similar cesspools of military-instigated human suffering.
As a Nation, we have our warts.
georgeob1 wrote:
Do you object to this point?
No, not at all. This happened in all German concentration camps, no matter if they were work camps, police camps, transit camps, 'foreign worker's camps' or 'death camps'.
(I've helped a bit with the conception/presentation of a nearby work camp - KZ Niederhagen - where from the altogether 3,900 prisoners interned there, 1,285 died: mostly simply worked to death.)
timberlandko wrote:
I believe you'll find the concept of "Death Camps" rather predates the halcyon days of Churchill's youth; as referenced
No argument there. There is very little that is new under the sun. However, it remains a fact that in the modern era, the original use of the term "Concentration Camps" was by the British during the Boer War. It was done to cut off the insurgency (as they saw it) of the Boers from its popular and physical support in the countryside of the Orange Free State and the Transvall. The British used more or less the same tactic in their suppression of the insurgency in Malaya. We tried it ourselvers for a While in Vietmam ("Strategic Hamlets").
Quote:As a Nation, we have our warts.
No argument there either. However I believe there is merit in getting the facts - and the relative significance - of things right.
Had these neat factoids in storage on another thread waiting for the bodies to be cleaned up here. My little Christmas present to you all.
Quote:Here are some interesting statistics:
Percentage of Americans who said in Novermber that the Valerie Plame leak scandal was of "great importance"... 51
Percentage who said, two months before President Nixon resigned, that Watergate was "very serious"... 49
Percentage who said it was "just politics"... 42
Years since a White House official as senior as Lewis Libby has been indicted while in office... 130
Percentage approval of Bill Clinton the day after impeachment... 73
Percentage approval of Bush in November... 37
Percentage of Russians today who approve of the direction their country took under Stalin... 37
Number of US prisoners serving life sentences with no parole for crimes they committed while juveniles... 2,225
Number of prisoners serving such sentences in all the other countries combined... 12
Number of small businesses that applied for the US disaster loans after last fall's hurricanes... 244,602
Percentage that had been approved as of mid-November... 3
(courtesy Harper's Index)
Apart from some very suspect data (Impeqachment = indictment) and some obvious attempts to use juxtaposition to imply meaning or a relationship where none exists, what is your point?
Just what is is Bernie that keeps you here?
george, If you have a problem of juxtaposition, why don't you identify them? Generalities just don't cut it.
Oh, and also the "suspect data."
As I said, they are obvious -- at least to those who will see. As for others, explanation won't help.
