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Bush supporters' aftermath thread

 
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Dec, 2005 12:36 pm
mysteryman wrote:
Simple,
Go look at the old abuzz archives,and look up any reports of complaints then.
You will find that there are no complaints about it from the dems when Clinton did it.

Care to point to a thread where somebody brought it up, and liberals were defensive or absent? Any pointers to a site that isn't extinct, unlike Abuzz?
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Dec, 2005 12:41 pm
How about this thread? Or the big thread? Or any of the comments from the Democrats or leftish media that are now condemning Bush? Do you see any of them drawing parallels between what prior administrations hae done compared to this one? I haven't. Not saying it isn't out there, but I haven't seen it.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Dec, 2005 12:45 pm
Gee, the only parallel mentioned is between Bush and Hitler - that I can remember, but, you know, my senior moments are more frequent now. . Wink
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FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Dec, 2005 12:46 pm
Well, for one thing, there are differences between the cited executive orders (Clinton and Carter you posted) and the one we're talking about. You can see the Americans spying on Americans thread for details.

But it's only partisan republicans who bring up those previous presidential actions in an attempt to say that this one is ok. Many conservatives are not ok with this, which doesn't surprise me. The fact that you and the other Bushophiles here are for it, does.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Dec, 2005 12:48 pm
Bush also said he wanted ID to be taught as science in our schools.
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Dec, 2005 12:48 pm
FreeDuck wrote:
Well, for one thing, there are differences between the cited executive orders (Clinton and Carter you posted) and the one we're talking about. You can see the Americans spying on Americans thread for details.

But it's only partisan republicans who bring up those previous presidential actions in an attempt to say that this one is ok. Many conservatives are not ok with this, which doesn't surprise me. The fact that you and the other Bushophiles here are for it, does.


According to the informative piece posted by Bill Clinton's associate attorney general above, those previous presidential actions are quite pertinent to the present one, and the present action is being misrepresented by those on the left. You want to say that he is saying this from a partisan perspective?
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Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Dec, 2005 12:48 pm
FreeDuck wrote:
Ticomaya wrote:
I don't know about the rest of you (referring to the Bush Supporters), but I think this lastest matter shows quite clearly that the Democratic Party is not ready to handle the reigns of national security, and won't be any time soon.


You say that as if you believe that only democrats are concerned about this.


On the whole, the dems appear to be more interested in doing whatever they think will garner more votes than protecting national security ... and they really think hammering the President on this issue is going to do that. (And apparently some think "killing" the Patriot Act will also do that.) Thus, whenever anything comes to pass where they think they can attack the Prez, they do so.

My guess is it will mean they will come out smelling like the party that is not serious when it comes to national security and defending our country against terrorism and terrorist infiltrators.

I'm not suggesting there are no Republicans concerned, nor am I suggesting all Democrats are. But overriding the question of whether there should be "concern," is the question of whether the action is appropriate, justified, and/or needed in our fight against terrorism.

I refer you to Posner's opinion (originally posted by Walter), which I believe is excellent:


Quote:
Richard A. Posner

Our Domestic Intelligence Crisis

We've learned that the Defense Department is deeply involved in domestic intelligence (intelligence concerning threats to national security that unfold on U.S. soil). The department's National Security Agency has been conducting, outside the framework of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, electronic surveillance of U.S. citizens within the United States. Other Pentagon agencies, notably the one known as Counterintelligence Field Activity (CIFA), have, as described in Walter Pincus's recent articles in The Post, been conducting domestic intelligence on a large scale. Although the CIFA's formal mission is to prevent attacks on military installations in the United States, the scale of its activities suggests a broader concern with domestic security. Other Pentagon agencies have gotten into the domestic intelligence act, such as the Information Dominance Center, which developed the Able Danger data-mining program.

These programs are criticized as grave threats to civil liberties. They are not. Their significance is in flagging the existence of gaps in our defenses against terrorism. The Defense Department is rushing to fill those gaps, though there may be better ways.

The collection, mainly through electronic means, of vast amounts of personal data is said to invade privacy. But machine collection and processing of data cannot, as such, invade privacy. Because of their volume, the data are first sifted by computers, which search for names, addresses, phone numbers, etc., that may have intelligence value. This initial sifting, far from invading privacy (a computer is not a sentient being), keeps most private data from being read by any intelligence officer.

The data that make the cut are those that contain clues to possible threats to national security. The only valid ground for forbidding human inspection of such data is fear that they might be used to blackmail or otherwise intimidate the administration's political enemies. That danger is more remote than at any previous period of U.S. history. Because of increased political partisanship, advances in communications technology and more numerous and competitive media, American government has become a sieve. No secrets concerning matters that would interest the public can be kept for long. And the public would be far more interested to learn that public officials were using private information about American citizens for base political ends than to learn that we have been rough with terrorist suspects ?- a matter that was quickly exposed despite efforts at concealment.

The Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act makes it difficult to conduct surveillance of U.S. citizens and lawful permanent residents unless they are suspected of being involved in terrorist or other hostile activities. That is too restrictive. Innocent people, such as unwitting neighbors of terrorists, may, without knowing it, have valuable counterterrorist information. Collecting such information is of a piece with data-mining projects such as Able Danger.

The goal of national security intelligence is to prevent a terrorist attack, not just punish the attacker after it occurs, and the information that enables the detection of an impending attack may be scattered around the world in tiny bits. A much wider, finer-meshed net must be cast than when investigating a specific crime. Many of the relevant bits may be in the e-mails, phone conversations or banking records of U.S. citizens, some innocent, some not so innocent. The government is entitled to those data, but just for the limited purpose of protecting national security.

The Pentagon's rush to fill gaps in domestic intelligence reflects the disarray in this vital yet neglected area of national security. The principal domestic intelligence agency is the FBI, but it is primarily a criminal investigation agency that has been struggling, so far with limited success, to transform itself. It is having trouble keeping its eye on the ball; an FBI official is quoted as having told the Senate that environmental and animal rights militants pose the biggest terrorist threats in the United States. If only that were so.

Most other nations, such as Britain, Canada, France, Germany and Israel, many with longer histories of fighting terrorism than the United States, have a domestic intelligence agency that is separate from its national police force, its counterpart to the FBI. We do not. We also have no official with sole and comprehensive responsibility for domestic intelligence. It is no surprise that gaps in domestic intelligence are being filled by ad hoc initiatives.

We must do better. The terrorist menace, far from receding, grows every day. This is not only because al Qaeda likes to space its attacks, often by many years, but also because weapons of mass destruction are becoming ever more accessible to terrorist groups and individuals. The writer is a judge on the U.S. Court of Appeals for the 7th Circuit and a senior lecturer in law at the University of Chicago. He will take questions at 2 p.m. today at www.washingtonpost. com.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Dec, 2005 12:54 pm
Well, my next quote to the above should not been missed either:

From Atrios.blog

Quote:
More on Posner


From Marty Lederman:


What's remarkable about Posner's Op-Ed is that his whole point is that the FISA law on this presently is (in his view) woefully inadequate to the task. He never even mentions the serious implication of this point, which is that, if he is right that FISA currently prohibits this -- and he is right -- then the Administration's data mining for the past four years has been a violation of criminal law. (No specious suggestions from Posner, who knows better, that this was authorized by the AUMF: He's forthright that the law needs to be amended.)

Posner may be right that current law is too restrictive. Congress should have that debate. But isn't it troubling that an esteemed federal judge seems so indifferent to the fact that, in the meantime -- before the Nation and the Congress have had the opportunity to debate Posner's proposal -- the Nation's Chief Executive is systematically authorizing criminal felonies?

This is the way Posner characterizes what's been happening: "The Defense Department is rushing to fill [the] gaps." I suppose that's one way of putting it. (I can imagine lawyers for criminal defendants with appeals to Posner's court: "Your honor, as you've written, this criminal restriction is very unwise and needs amending. My client was merely rushing to fill the statutory gap.")

Here's the most chilling line in Posner's column, taking euphemism to a new level: "It is no surprise that gaps in domestic intelligence are being filled by ad hoc initiatives." That's Posner's kinder, gentler way of saying "It is no surprise that current federal laws, which unwisely criminalize this conduct, are being circumvented by the President's authorization to commit felonies."
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Dec, 2005 12:57 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
Ticomaya wrote:
I don't know about the rest of you (referring to the Bush Supporters), but I think this lastest matter shows quite clearly that the Democratic Party is not ready to handle the reigns of national security, and won't be any time soon.


Amen to that. And I hope the American public is paying attention.


Of course, polls suggest that they are but, that in paying attention, they have increasingly concluded quite differently than do you as to whom are to be trusted.
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FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Dec, 2005 12:59 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
FreeDuck wrote:

According to the informative piece posted by Bill Clinton's associate attorney general above, those previous presidential actions are quite pertinent to the present one, and the present action is being misrepresented by those on the left. You want to say that he is saying this from a partisan perspective?


Maybe I missed it, but I didn't see where he talked about the previous executive orders that you posted earlier.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Dec, 2005 12:59 pm
Posner might be a judge in our country, but he doesn't understand the laws or the application of laws, but more importantly doesn't understand the 4th Amendment to our Constitution. Why is he a judge?

Fill the gaps? There are ways in this country to "fill those gaps." He doesn't seem to understand why our country has checks and balances.
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Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Dec, 2005 01:01 pm
Thanks for that, Walter.

Lederman's rebuttal, of course does not address the point I was making by posting Poser's article, but thank you anyway.
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Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Dec, 2005 01:03 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
How about this thread? Or the big thread?

Where in this thread do you see liberals who a) agree that the Clinton administration had American citizens wiretapped without a warrant, and b) defended the practice, or said they had no complaints about it when it happened? That was mysteryman's claim. If you say the present thread supports it, please link to posts that show complacency toward wiretapping by the Clinton administration without a warrant.
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Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Dec, 2005 01:05 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
Posner might be a judge in our country, but he doesn't understand the laws or the application of laws, but more importantly doesn't understand the 4th Amendment to our Constitution. Why is he a judge?


He's a judge because he understands the laws and the application of laws, and the Amendments to the Constitution.

Why do you think he shouldn't be a judge .... because you don't agree with him?
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Dec, 2005 01:09 pm
Thomas wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
How about this thread? Or the big thread?

Where in this thread do you see liberals who a) agree that the Clinton administration had American citizens wiretapped without a warrant, and b) defended the practice, or said they had no complaints about it when it happened? That was mysteryman's claim. If you say the present thread supports it, please link to posts that show complacency toward wiretapping by the Clinton administration without a warrant.


I haven't seen anybody criticize Clinton for it. Have you? Wasn't that the complaint? There are those who are condemning Bush for doing something who expressed no problem that prior administrations did it. And when it has been pointed out that prior administrations did it, I haven't seen any on the Left rush to condemn that too. All or most have largely ignored it as well as a very comprehensive explanation from a member of Clinton's administration who defended it. FD did comment on it to say that it was somehow different.

I was just using this as illustration for the point MM made as requests for links from years ago are not going to be that easy to obtain. Sometimes illustrations can be just as useful however.
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Dec, 2005 01:16 pm
tico said:
Quote:
I'm not suggesting there are no Republicans concerned, nor am I suggesting all Democrats are. But overriding the question of whether there should be "concern," is the question of whether the action is appropriate, justified, and/or needed in our fight against terrorism.


Dems are traditionally seen as 'weak on defence', which is why the administration, the RNC traditionally (and now the rightwing media) play up the notions of 'threat' and why they strategize to place dems in awkward PR positions re war/defence etc. That's the game. The truth or falsity of the premis is quite outside normal discourse (for example, is the military now weaker or stronger, better or less prepared, etc than it was in 2000?)

On the other hand, Republicans are seen as dangerous in matters of civil liberties. That's a traditional weak point and explains why the administration and its supporters are strenuously active in defending the FBI monitoring the Catholic group and the Quaker group and the gay soldiers group or the NSA monitoring US citizens, etc etc. That's the other part of the game.

The present situation isn't good for your side. Part of the evidence for that is the number of Republicans who hold libertarian notions and who are now NOT aligned with the administration or you or John Yoo.

If things do not go well now in Iraq, and there is very good reason to fear that they won't as Shiites gain the easily predictable electoral wins and as the Kurds move towards their independence goals and particularly if the Sunnis decide they can't abide the results, then your administration is going to have no friends other than ideologues such as yourself who wouldn't turn against the administration if it got caught having sex with infants.
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Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Dec, 2005 01:20 pm
blatham wrote:
The present situation isn't good for your side.


Well, I disagree, blatham. I think when push comes to shove, the analysis will have to be which party will do a better job with national security, and there is no doubt about which party that is.
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Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Dec, 2005 01:28 pm
Quote:
Well, I disagree, blatham. I think when push comes to shove, the analysis will have to be which party will do a better job with national security, and there is no doubt about which party that is.


National security does not trump each and every other factor, sorry.

Not to mention that the complete lack of Border security highlights the weakness of the Republican party's position on security; like locking the front door but leaving the back wide open....

Cycloptichorn
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Dec, 2005 01:34 pm
Looking at Cyclops post, I am reminded that I have been involved in a discussion at another site on a subject that prompted the question: "What Constitutional, legal, or unalienable right was being violated."

The leftie's response was: "Something can be unconstitutional without involving individual rights." He honestly thought that was responsive to the issue.

It must be something in the water. I guess.
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Dec, 2005 01:38 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
Looking at Cyclops post, I am reminded that I have been involved in a discussion at another site on a subject that prompted the question: "What Constitutional, legal, or unalienable right was being violated."

The leftie's response was: "Something can be unconstitutional without involving individual rights." He honestly thought that was responsive to the issue.

It must be something in the water. I guess.


Well, I'm sorry that the lefty didn't give you a satisfactory response, but the simple matter is that we have the right to be secure against unreasonable search and seizure. FISA was designed to protect these rights while bowing to the need to conduct surveillance which might inadvertently include US citizens.

If citizens are being searched secretly without probable cause that is a violation of the 4th amendment.

Did anyone on your other board have an answer to why the president felt he couldn't just follow the exising law or ask to have it amended if it was not satisfactory?
0 Replies
 
 

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