0
   

Bush supporters' aftermath thread

 
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Dec, 2005 09:46 am
Thomas wrote:
dyslexia wrote:
"I 100% support the government in whatever it needs to do to identify, apprehend, and get rid of them."
Scariest statement I have read this year.

Odd thing for a libertarian to say, too. Whatever happened to mantras such as this? "In this current crisis, government is not the solution to our problem, government is the problem." They just don't make Republicans like Reagan anmore ...


Both of you must have missed the word "need" in my post. It is a rather critical one I think.

As I have posted elsewhere (somewhere), I myself was quite likely under surveillance during the Reagan adminsitration and I am relatively certain that it was without a court order.

To assume that what the government does secretly is automatically bad is just plain silly. Personally I think to telegraph to bad guys how they are being tracked and watched is very silly.

And Libertarians are very very big on national defense.

The government is not listening in on you or your neighbors gossip. They are listening in on international calls in cases where terrorist activity is suspected. Please tell me what is wrong with that.
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Dec, 2005 10:14 am
Power is power. If we accept that they can, then we have to accept that they will. I'm asking for checks and balances and oversight to ensure that rights are not violated. I don't think that's too much to ask.
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Dec, 2005 10:17 am
FreeDuck wrote:
Power is power. If we accept that they can, then we have to accept that they will. I'm asking for checks and balances and oversight to ensure that rights are not violated. I don't think that's too much to ask.


And here...
http://news.findlaw.com/wp/docs/terrorism/fisa111802opn.pdf

We find that they can.

WARNING,its a 56 page document.
Scroll down to the very end and you will see that they CAN do warrantless searches and wiretaps.
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Dec, 2005 10:20 am
mysteryman wrote:
FreeDuck wrote:
Power is power. If we accept that they can, then we have to accept that they will. I'm asking for checks and balances and oversight to ensure that rights are not violated. I don't think that's too much to ask.


And here...
http://news.findlaw.com/wp/docs/terrorism/fisa111802opn.pdf

We find that they can.

WARNING,its a 56 page document.
Scroll down to the very end and you will see that they CAN do warrantless searches and wiretaps.


I've read that decision, MM, and it doesn't address the need for judicial review.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Dec, 2005 10:21 am
There are very clear checks and balances.

The whole point of this flap is that when they have the chance to intercept a call there is usually not time to get a warrant without losing the chance to do the interception. So there has to be some other license allowed to catch the bad guys.

When they start listening in on MM's or FD's gossip just to see what you're up to, then I'll join you 100% in protest.
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Dec, 2005 10:21 am
All forms of government are pernicious by nature, it is only the rule of law that can protect the citizens from their handlers.
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Dec, 2005 10:27 am
Foxfyre wrote:
There are very clear checks and balances.

The whole point of this flap is that when they have the chance to intercept a call there is usually not time to get a warrant without losing the chance to do the interception. So there has to be some other license allowed to catch the bad guys.


Again, FISA allows them to listen first and get a warrant later. This isn't the point of the flap at all.

Quote:
When they start listening in on MM's or FD's gossip just to see what you're up to, then I'll join you 100% in protest.


By then it will be way too late.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Dec, 2005 10:54 am
It isn't spying, it's 'Freedom Listening'
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Dec, 2005 11:01 am
blatham wrote:
It isn't spying, it's 'Freedom Listening'


Laughing I was going to try to improve on that, but I can't.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Dec, 2005 11:21 am
Mr. Bush says Congress gave him the power to spy on Americans. Fine, then Congress can just take it back.
December 20, 2005

Editorial
The Fog of False Choices

After five years, we're used to President Bush throwing up false choices to defend his policies. Americans were told, after all, that there was a choice between invading Iraq and risking a terrorist nuclear attack. So it was not a surprise that Mr. Bush's Oval Office speech Sunday night and his news conference yesterday were thick with Orwellian constructions: the policy debate on Iraq is between those who support Mr. Bush and those who want to pull out right now, today; fighting terrorists in Iraq means we're not fighting them here.

But none of these phony choices were as absurd as the one Mr. Bush posed to justify his secret program of spying on Americans: save lives or follow the law.

Mr. Bush said he thwarted terrorist plots by allowing the National Security Agency to monitor Americans' international communications without a warrant. We don't know if that is true because the administration reverts to top-secret mode when pressed for details. But we can reach a conclusion about Mr. Bush's assertion that obeying a 27-year-old law prevents swift and decisive action in a high-tech era. It's a myth.

The 1978 law that regulates spying on Americans (remember Richard Nixon's enemies lists?) does require a warrant to conduct that sort of surveillance. It also created a special court that is capable of responding within hours to warrant requests. If that is not fast enough, the attorney general may authorize wiretaps and then seek a warrant within 72 hours.

Mr. Bush and Attorney General Alberto Gonzales offered a whole bag of logical pretzels yesterday to justify flouting this law. Most bizarre was the assertion that Congress authorized the surveillance of American citizens when it approved the use of "all necessary and appropriate force" by the United States military to punish those responsible for the 9/11 attacks or who aided or harbored the terrorists. This came as a surprise to lawmakers, who thought they were voting for the invasion of Afghanistan and the capture of Osama bin Laden.

This administration has a long record of expanding presidential powers in dangerous ways; the indefinite detention of "unlawful enemy combatants" comes to mind. So assurances that surveillance targets are carefully selected with reasonable cause don't comfort. In a democracy ruled by laws, investigators identify suspects and prosecutors obtain warrants for searches by showing reasonable cause to a judge, who decides if legal tests were met.

Chillingly, this is not the only time we've heard of this administration using terrorism as an excuse to spy on Americans. NBC News recently discovered a Pentagon database of 1,500 "suspicious incidents" that included a Quaker meeting to plan an antiwar rally. And Eric Lichtblau and James Risen write in today's Times that F.B.I. counterterrorism squads have conducted numerous surveillance operations since Sept. 11, 2001, on groups like People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals, Greenpeace and the Catholic Workers group.

Mr. Bush says Congress gave him the power to spy on Americans. Fine, then Congress can just take it back.

* Copyright 2005The New York Times Company

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/20/opinion/20tue1.html?th=&emc=th&pagewanted=print
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Dec, 2005 11:26 am
And then there is this from Clinton's associate attorney general:

President had legal authority to OK taps

By John Schmidt
Published December 21, 2005


President Bush's post- Sept. 11, 2001, authorization to the National Security Agency to carry out electronic surveillance into private phone calls and e-mails is consistent with court decisions and with the positions of the Justice Department under prior presidents.

The president authorized the NSA program in response to the 9/11 terrorist attacks on America. An identifiable group, Al Qaeda, was responsible and believed to be planning future attacks in the United States. Electronic surveillance of communications to or from those who might plausibly be members of or in contact with Al Qaeda was probably the only means of obtaining information about what its members were planning next. No one except the president and the few officials with access to the NSA program can know how valuable such surveillance has been in protecting the nation.

In the Supreme Court's 1972 Keith decision holding that the president does not have inherent authority to order wiretapping without warrants to combat domestic threats, the court said explicitly that it was not questioning the president's authority to take such action in response to threats from abroad.

Four federal courts of appeal subsequently faced the issue squarely and held that the president has inherent authority to authorize wiretapping for foreign intelligence purposes without judicial warrant.

In the most recent judicial statement on the issue, the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court of Review, composed of three federal appellate court judges, said in 2002 that "All the ... courts to have decided the issue held that the president did have inherent authority to conduct warrantless searches to obtain foreign intelligence ... We take for granted that the president does have that authority."

The passage of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act in 1978 did not alter the constitutional situation. That law created the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court that can authorize surveillance directed at an "agent of a foreign power," which includes a foreign terrorist group. Thus, Congress put its weight behind the constitutionality of such surveillance in compliance with the law's procedures.

But as the 2002 Court of Review noted, if the president has inherent authority to conduct warrantless searches, "FISA could not encroach on the president's constitutional power."

Every president since FISA's passage has asserted that he retained inherent power to go beyond the act's terms. Under President Clinton, deputy Atty. Gen. Jamie Gorelick testified that "the Department of Justice believes, and the case law supports, that the president has inherent authority to conduct warrantless physical searches for foreign intelligence purposes."

FISA contains a provision making it illegal to "engage in electronic surveillance under color of law except as authorized by statute." The term "electronic surveillance" is defined to exclude interception outside the U.S., as done by the NSA, unless there is interception of a communication "sent by or intended to be received by a particular, known United States person" (a U.S. citizen or permanent resident) and the communication is intercepted by "intentionally targeting that United States person." The cryptic descriptions of the NSA program leave unclear whether it involves targeting of identified U.S. citizens. If the surveillance is based upon other kinds of evidence, it would fall outside what a FISA court could authorize and also outside the act's prohibition on electronic surveillance.

The administration has offered the further defense that FISA's reference to surveillance "authorized by statute" is satisfied by congressional passage of the post-Sept. 11 resolution giving the president authority to "use all necessary and appropriate force" to prevent those responsible for Sept. 11 from carrying out further attacks. The administration argues that obtaining intelligence is a necessary and expected component of any military or other use of force to prevent enemy action.

But even if the NSA activity is "electronic surveillance" and the Sept. 11 resolution is not "statutory authorization" within the meaning of FISA, the act still cannot, in the words of the 2002 Court of Review decision, "encroach upon the president's constitutional power."

FISA does not anticipate a post-Sept. 11 situation. What was needed after Sept. 11, according to the president, was surveillance beyond what could be authorized under that kind of individualized case-by-case judgment. It is hard to imagine the Supreme Court second-guessing that presidential judgment.

Should we be afraid of this inherent presidential power? Of course. If surveillance is used only for the purpose of preventing another Sept. 11 type of attack or a similar threat, the harm of interfering with the privacy of people in this country is minimal and the benefit is immense. The danger is that surveillance will not be used solely for that narrow and extraordinary purpose.

But we cannot eliminate the need for extraordinary action in the kind of unforeseen circumstances presented by Sept.11. I do not believe the Constitution allows Congress to take away from the president the inherent authority to act in response to a foreign attack. That inherent power is reason to be careful about who we elect as president, but it is authority we have needed in the past and, in the light of history, could well need again.

----------

John Schmidt served under President Clinton from 1994 to 1997 as the associate attorney general of the United States. He is now a partner in the Chicago-based law firm of Mayer, Brown, Rowe & Maw.
SOURCE
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Dec, 2005 11:33 am
Mr. Bush says Congress gave him the power to spy on Americans. Fine, then Congress can just take it back.
December 20, 2005

Editorial
The Fog of False Choices

After five years, we're used to President Bush throwing up false choices to defend his policies. Americans were told, after all, that there was a choice between invading Iraq and risking a terrorist nuclear attack. So it was not a surprise that Mr. Bush's Oval Office speech Sunday night and his news conference yesterday were thick with Orwellian constructions: the policy debate on Iraq is between those who support Mr. Bush and those who want to pull out right now, today; fighting terrorists in Iraq means we're not fighting them here.

But none of these phony choices were as absurd as the one Mr. Bush posed to justify his secret program of spying on Americans: save lives or follow the law.

Mr. Bush said he thwarted terrorist plots by allowing the National Security Agency to monitor Americans' international communications without a warrant. We don't know if that is true because the administration reverts to top-secret mode when pressed for details. But we can reach a conclusion about Mr. Bush's assertion that obeying a 27-year-old law prevents swift and decisive action in a high-tech era. It's a myth.

The 1978 law that regulates spying on Americans (remember Richard Nixon's enemies lists?) does require a warrant to conduct that sort of surveillance. It also created a special court that is capable of responding within hours to warrant requests. If that is not fast enough, the attorney general may authorize wiretaps and then seek a warrant within 72 hours.

Mr. Bush and Attorney General Alberto Gonzales offered a whole bag of logical pretzels yesterday to justify flouting this law. Most bizarre was the assertion that Congress authorized the surveillance of American citizens when it approved the use of "all necessary and appropriate force" by the United States military to punish those responsible for the 9/11 attacks or who aided or harbored the terrorists. This came as a surprise to lawmakers, who thought they were voting for the invasion of Afghanistan and the capture of Osama bin Laden.

This administration has a long record of expanding presidential powers in dangerous ways; the indefinite detention of "unlawful enemy combatants" comes to mind. So assurances that surveillance targets are carefully selected with reasonable cause don't comfort. In a democracy ruled by laws, investigators identify suspects and prosecutors obtain warrants for searches by showing reasonable cause to a judge, who decides if legal tests were met.

Chillingly, this is not the only time we've heard of this administration using terrorism as an excuse to spy on Americans. NBC News recently discovered a Pentagon database of 1,500 "suspicious incidents" that included a Quaker meeting to plan an antiwar rally. And Eric Lichtblau and James Risen write in today's Times that F.B.I. counterterrorism squads have conducted numerous surveillance operations since Sept. 11, 2001, on groups like People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals, Greenpeace and the Catholic Workers group.

Mr. Bush says Congress gave him the power to spy on Americans. Fine, then Congress can just take it back.

* Copyright 2005The New York Times Company

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/20/opinion/20tue1.html?th=&emc=th&pagewanted=print
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Dec, 2005 11:39 am
I think I'll take John Schmidt's word against an unsourced NY Times article. Looks like the Times would wise up and understand that it's clap trap like that which is costing them subscribers, advertisers, and revenues.
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Dec, 2005 11:39 am
I don't know about the rest of you (referring to the Bush Supporters), but I think this lastest matter shows quite clearly that the Democratic Party is not ready to handle the reigns of national security, and won't be any time soon.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Dec, 2005 11:40 am
Ticomaya wrote:
I don't know about the rest of you (referring to the Bush Supporters), but I think this lastest matter shows quite clearly that the Democratic Party is not ready to handle the reigns of national security, and won't be any time soon.


Amen to that. And I hope the American public is paying attention.
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Dec, 2005 12:06 pm
Ticomaya wrote:
I don't know about the rest of you (referring to the Bush Supporters), but I think this lastest matter shows quite clearly that the Democratic Party is not ready to handle the reigns of national security, and won't be any time soon.


You say that as if you believe that only democrats are concerned about this.
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Dec, 2005 12:08 pm
FreeDuck wrote:
Ticomaya wrote:
I don't know about the rest of you (referring to the Bush Supporters), but I think this lastest matter shows quite clearly that the Democratic Party is not ready to handle the reigns of national security, and won't be any time soon.


You say that as if you believe that only democrats are concerned about this.


No,but only dems are saying it was ok for the Clinton admin to do it,but its wrong for the Bush admin to do it.
Either it is wrong for both,or its ok for both.
And if it was wrong for the Clinton admin to do it,then why were there no protests or complaints about it from ANY of the dems at that time?
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Dec, 2005 12:10 pm
mysteryman wrote:
FreeDuck wrote:
Ticomaya wrote:
I don't know about the rest of you (referring to the Bush Supporters), but I think this lastest matter shows quite clearly that the Democratic Party is not ready to handle the reigns of national security, and won't be any time soon.


You say that as if you believe that only democrats are concerned about this.


No,but only dems are saying it was ok for the Clinton admin to do it,but its wrong for the Bush admin to do it.


Irrelevant, but who is saying that?

Quote:
Either it is wrong for both,or its ok for both.
And if it was wrong for the Clinton admin to do it,then why were there no protests or complaints about it from ANY of the dems at that time?


How do you know there weren't?
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Dec, 2005 12:19 pm
Simple,
Go look at the old abuzz archives,and look up any reports of complaints then.
You will find that there are no complaints about it from the dems when Clinton did it.
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Dec, 2005 12:21 pm
mysteryman wrote:
Simple,
Go look at the old abuzz archives,and look up any reports of complaints then.
You will find that there are no complaints about it from the dems when Clinton did it.


Why don't you do it and send me the link.
0 Replies
 
 

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