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Bush supporters' aftermath thread

 
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Dec, 2005 08:04 pm
Acknowledged, despite Thomas's compliment, that CI has no intention of being courteous and intends every thread to be a Bush bashing thread. This is cool. So long as Democrats continue to behave in such a manner, we have no worries about them retaking either the White House or the Congress I think. Smile
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Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Dec, 2005 10:08 pm
Oh come on now. This thread would never have reached it's prodigious length if it had been limited to to fulsome praise of Bush and all things Bushian.

Those of us who are Bush supporters may tire of the incessant caterwaul of the Bush-Haters, but let's leave the smug, self-congratulatory circle-jerk threads to the Lefties.

To the Liberal invaders of this thread I say:

"Lay on McDuff and damned be him who first cries 'Hold, enough.'"
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Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Dec, 2005 10:15 pm
Good point, Finn. My aim is not to bar the door to c.i., et al., but to curtail the incessant, irrelevant anti-Bush posts that are are not responsive to a current topic. There are plenty of threads where those posts are welcome and invited.
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Lash
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Dec, 2005 10:34 pm
It would be nice to have an actual dicussion about relevant issues. When you dispose of the incessant noise of empty insults, productive conversation can emerge.

When those like CI leave, the stupid bickering ceases and the level of discourse rises substantially.
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Dec, 2005 10:52 pm
Amen to that Lash. There are a number of issues that I would like to explore, but every time I bring one up we get the usual multiple strong of empty articles taking up a page or so. This kind of spamming makes discussion impossible.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Dec, 2005 10:54 pm
Lash wrote:
It would be nice to have an actual dicussion about relevant issues. When you dispose of the incessant noise of empty insults, productive conversation can emerge.

When those like CI leave, the stupid bickering ceases and the level of discourse rises substantially.


Although this is far easier for me to say than practice, one need not bicker with the idiots. Ignoring idiotic postings is always a choice.

If one does bicker, it is because one wants to and achieves some form of satisfaction from doing so. I know I do, and so ashamed am I for it.

At the same time, there is nothing particularly egregious about someone expressing their exasperation over the incessant idiocy.

I like conflict. I hate the threads that I refer to as circle-jerks. I look for the posting that challenges the original proposition, and am nauseated by those that are simply a daisy chain of "This sucks!" and "Yeah, you're right, it really sucks."

Let's face it, the vast majority of us frequent A2K for the opportunity to debate. We can revel when there is intelligent debate, but we must suffer through the idiocy to find it.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Dec, 2005 11:49 pm
Thomas wrote:
Walter Hinteler wrote:
Thanks. I will remember.

As far as I do remember, Tico never spammed the Democrats' "weeping and gnashing teeth" thread. But he still left it within a few posts of his being asked to, and never returned to it. If you are suggesting that double standards are at play here, I believe Tico is the wrong target for your suggestion.


Where did I say such?

Or was confused that remember and remind are translated the same way? Too short to explain, what I wanted to say?



I just wanted to say: thanks for reminding me and I will try to remember this when I start to make such remarks again later.

Sorry for the confusion. And see you on other threads :wink:
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Dec, 2005 11:54 pm
But Finn, is it really too much to ask that we have one thread that we don't have to suffer through so much of the idiocy? I look at the pages of spam that two or three individuals insist on dumping in this one and just go on elsewhere to find honest to goodness discussions in process. I certainly have no problem with ideas and concepts being challenged in this thread. There is nothing so boring as preaching to the choir. Maybe it's too much to ask that we have one thread to discuss conservative concepts or whatever passes for conservatism these days.
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Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Dec, 2005 12:06 am
Foxfyre wrote:
But Finn, is it really too much to ask that we have one thread that we don't have to suffer through so much of the idiocy? I look at the pages of spam that two or three individuals insist on dumping in this one and just go on elsewhere to find honest to goodness discussions in process. I certainly have no problem with ideas and concepts being challenged in this thread. There is nothing so boring as preaching to the choir. Maybe it's too much to ask that we have one thread to discuss conservative concepts or whatever passes for conservatism these days.


It is too much.

Not because it is in someway selfish, but because it is unrealistic.

If we want to have a fluid discussion of conservative concepts we can; we need only ignore the intruders.
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Dec, 2005 12:14 am
Finn d'Abuzz wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
But Finn, is it really too much to ask that we have one thread that we don't have to suffer through so much of the idiocy? I look at the pages of spam that two or three individuals insist on dumping in this one and just go on elsewhere to find honest to goodness discussions in process. I certainly have no problem with ideas and concepts being challenged in this thread. There is nothing so boring as preaching to the choir. Maybe it's too much to ask that we have one thread to discuss conservative concepts or whatever passes for conservatism these days.


It is too much.

Not because it is in someway selfish, but because it is unrealistic.

If we want to have a fluid discussion of conservative concepts we can; we need only ignore the intruders.


Well I'm content to be selfish to want one intelligent thread among all the MANY Bush bashing threads out there. But you're right. It's too much to ask. It's damn hard to have a fluid discussion, however, when every remark is answered with a page or more of unrelated idiotic articles that nobody reads.

However, the election in Iraq went well yesterday from all reports I've seen. ABC radio of all sources actually put out a really interesting Perspective program this evening with interviews and observations of the Iraq scene and even compared situations of a year ago with what they found now. And they actually broadcast some very nice things the Iraqis were saying about our President.

Is there time for the good news to turn around the polls and spark some inciteful considerations before the midterm elections?
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Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Dec, 2005 12:24 am
Foxfyre wrote:
Finn d'Abuzz wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
But Finn, is it really too much to ask that we have one thread that we don't have to suffer through so much of the idiocy? I look at the pages of spam that two or three individuals insist on dumping in this one and just go on elsewhere to find honest to goodness discussions in process. I certainly have no problem with ideas and concepts being challenged in this thread. There is nothing so boring as preaching to the choir. Maybe it's too much to ask that we have one thread to discuss conservative concepts or whatever passes for conservatism these days.


It is too much.

Not because it is in someway selfish, but because it is unrealistic.

If we want to have a fluid discussion of conservative concepts we can; we need only ignore the intruders.


Well I'm content to be selfish to want one intelligent thread among all the MANY Bush bashing threads out there. But you're right. It's too much to ask. It's damn hard to have a fluid discussion, however, when every remark is answered with a page or more of unrelated idiotic articles that nobody reads.

However, the election in Iraq went well yesterday from all reports I've seen. ABC radio of all sources actually put out a really interest Perspective program this evening with interviews and observations of the Iraq scene and even compared situations of a year ago with what they found now. And they actually broadcast some very nice things the Iraqis were saying about our President.

Is there time for the good news to turn around the polls and spark some inciteful considerations before the midterm elections?


No, because whenever there is an opportunity to focus on good news there will be the NY Times or the Washington Post, or ABC News etc to introduce a story that will compete with it and (hopefully, to them) supersede it.

The NY Times sat on their story about Bush allowing spying on American citizens without warrants for over a year. What required its publishing the day of the Iraqi elections?

Another example of the Times attempting to make the news rather than reporting on it.

Fine. Let them have at it. My only problem is when they and their Left-wing supporters try and tell us that they are not operating from a bias.

You know, I tend to agree. They aren't operating from a bias, they're operating from an agenda.
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Dec, 2005 12:44 am
Good point Finn. I'm entertaining suggestons about what can be done about a media with an agenda? The American people have come up with ingenious ideas in the past. There must be some way to combat what is actually becoming evil.

And good observation on the breaking the story of the spy thing. They no doubt were sitting on that just waiting to obliterate any possible good news from the front page.

The thing I can't figure out is why the lefties want news to be bad? Why isn't good news a good thing for everybody?

Maybe Michael Savage is right and liberalism really is a mental disorder.
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JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Dec, 2005 12:47 am
Foxy, I posted one article on the election in hopes of getting a discussion going. It got lost amongst the doom and gloom from our lefty trolls. It's beyond them to see that it's possible the Iraqis just might be inching toward peace and freedom.

Still, I was happy for the people of Iraq. Last January they danced. Their very first free election. I miss the dancing Iraqis.
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JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Dec, 2005 12:56 am
Foxfyre wrote:
Good point Finn. I'm entertaining suggestons about what can be done about a media with an agenda? The American people have come up with ingenious ideas in the past. There must be some way to combat what is actually becoming evil.

And good observation on the breaking the story of the spy thing. They no doubt were sitting on that just waiting to obliterate any possible good news from the front page.

The thing I can't figure out is why the lefties want news to be bad? Why isn't good news a good thing for everybody?

Maybe Michael Savage is right and liberalism really is a mental disorder.


Foxy - not to worry Smile John Hinderaker of PowerLine fame (he busted Rathergate wide open) is on it.

http://powerlineblog.com/archives/012571.php
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Dec, 2005 08:41 am
Good find JW. I worked for a really sinister, evil, ecumenical religious organization for awhile in 1984. (For the historically challenged, this would have been during the Reagan administration.) For years this organization had been providing a clandestine meeting place and communications center for people helping in the "Sanctuary movement" that assisted people to illegally immigrate to the US from what they believed to be oppressive Central and South American countries.

I personally was not involved with Sanctuary but knew the people who were and met some of the people they were 'helping' get past the INS. I was advised to be careful because I was almost certainly under surveillance and my phone was almost certainly tapped because I was working for this organization. The office phones I manned were also tapped. Was that via a court order? No. But it had been going on since the Carter Administration and probably before. (Sanctuary got going good during the Carter Administration.)

The point here is that government agencies have been doing this stuff for a long time. We weren't worried about terrorists during the 80's and 90's, but anybody who thinks there was no illegal or semi-legal surveillance done by the government then is just plain naive. And there is even more necessity to intercept potentially dangerous people now in this age of terrorism.

Carter, Reagan, and Clinton had less hostile press than what Bush has had, and I think the press has become more and more irresponsible these last several years.

I hope they get called on it until even they are ashamed.
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Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Dec, 2005 08:52 am
Quote:
"Happy Days!"
The Iraqi elections really could be a turning point.
by Robert Kagan and William Kristol
12/26/2005, Volume 011, Issue 15



THE PURPLE INK on 11 million Iraqi fingers had not yet dried after an unprecedented, almost miraculous exercise in democratic freedom--and already there were querulous American critics working hard to make light of the whole thing. "Experts Cautious in Assessing Iraqi Election," ran the headline on a Friday Washington Post story by Robin Wright; "High Turnout, Low Violence a Positive Step, but Not a Turning Point, Analysts Say." And indeed, the indefatigable Ms. Wright had telephoned her usual cast of sour experts, each of whom was eager to help explain why, whatever else it might be, the peaceful election of a national assembly for a fully self-governing Arab democracy was Not a Turning Point. Elsewhere in the Post, former Clinton assistant secretary of state Susan Rice took the occasion of Iraq's elections to reject, with a bit of a sneer, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice's assertion that democracy in Iraq serves American security interests.

Funny, isn't it? We seem to remember that the Clinton administration's declared foreign policy doctrine was something called "democratic enlargement." No longer operative, it seems. Will any leading Democrat, other than Joe Lieberman, bring himself to unambiguously celebrate this eruption of democracy in the heart of the Arab world?

In Iraq, just about everyone is celebrating. "Happy days!" cheered Salim Saleh to a New York Times reporter. "Before, we had a dictator, and now we have this freedom, this democracy," Emad Abdul Jabbar, a 38-year-old Sunni, told the Times. "This time, we have a real election, not just the sham elections we had under Saddam, and we Sunnis want to participate in the political process." "We are so happy," Sahera Hashim told the Financial Times. "We hope for security, good life. We have suffered too much in the past." The mayor of Ramadi, an insurgent and Sunni stronghold, compared the elections to a wedding: "Right now, the city is experiencing a democratic celebration." Another Sunni man told a Post reporter, "All my neighborhood is voting. God willing, after the elections things will be good."

The biggest story of this election, apart from its obvious milestone character, is the staggeringly high Sunni turnout. In October we were being assured, by the usual experts, that the passage of the constitutional referendum was a disaster, another of many final nails in the coffin of Iraqi democracy: The Sunnis would now never participate in the electoral process. It turns out that they did participate, and they did so with eager anticipation that through the new democratic process their voices could be heard and their interests protected.

It also turns out that one of the major reasons Sunnis had not participated before was fear that they would be killed by terrorists and insurgents. This time, with 160,000 American troops and thousands of newly trained Iraqi soldiers and police, there was a sense of security. "Last time, if you voted, you died," Abdul Jabbar Mahdi, a Sunni, told the Times's Dexter Filkins. "God willing, this election will lead to peace." As Filkins notes, "Comments from Sunni voters, though anecdotal, suggested that a good number of them had stayed away from the polls in January not because they were disenchanted with the democratic process, but because they were afraid of being killed."

Not a turning point? The participation of the Sunnis in such high numbers by itself marks this election as a watershed. Either something dramatic has happened to Sunni attitudes, or true Sunni feelings were previously suppressed. Among the Sunnis he interviewed, the Times's John Burns found "a new willingness to distance themselves from the insurgency, an absence of hostility for Americans, a casual contempt for Saddam Hussein, a yearning for Sunnis to find a place for themselves in the post-Hussein Iraq." Zaydan Khalif, 33, wrapped himself in the Iraqi flag as he headed to the polls. "It's the national feeling," he explained. According to the Los Angeles Times, in Sunni-dominated Falluja voters chanted "May God protect Iraq and Iraqis." The majority of Sunnis appear to have decided to cast votes rather than plant bombs. One Sunni man told a reporter, "We do not want violence and for others to say Sunnis are spearheading the violence in Iraq." Amer Fadhel Hassani, a Sunni resident of Baghdad, said, "If we get more seats, it will be quieter. The ones who were absent in January will now have a voice."

They have a voice partly because of the apparent success of the recently adopted American/Iraqi counterinsurgency strategy of "clear and hold." There may now be a realization among Sunnis that the insurgency is not winning, and thus may not be the best way for them to recover their lost power--or even to strengthen their bargaining position. Sunni fence sitters seem to be tilting toward involvement in the political process. A more active counterinsurgency strategy--and the presence of 160,000 American troops--has not, as some predicted, reduced Sunni participation in the political process or engendered greater hostility and violence. On the contrary, the extra troops helped provide the security that made it safer for Sunnis and others to vote, and for democracy to take root. If American and Iraqi troops continue to provide basic security, and if Iraq's different sects and political groups now begin to engage in serious, peaceful bargaining, then we may just have witnessed the beginning of Iraq's future.

And not only Iraq's future. One 50-year-old Shiite schoolteacher told the Los Angeles Times, "I am proud as an Iraqi because our country is becoming a center of attraction for all Arab countries. The new situation in Iraq, the democratic system, is starting to put pressure on the Arab systems to make some changes toward democracy." Such thoughts cannot yet be freely expressed in the salons of Washington, D.C., and New York City. But they seem to make sense in today's Iraq.

Has this one election settled everything, or even anything? Is Iraq now safely on the path to a durable democracy? Of course not. One voter told a New York Times reporter, "Iraqis aren't used to democracy, we have to learn it." True enough. They will have to learn it, and this learning process will take time and be attended by many backward steps, many errors, and many crises. But now, at least, they have a chance.

Iraqis would not have had that chance had the United States chosen to leave Saddam Hussein in power. They would not have had that chance if American troops had been withdrawn or reduced from the already inadequate levels established after the invasion in 2003. And they will lose that chance if the United States now begins a hasty reduction of forces. Burns reports that even Sunnis unhappy with the American presence favor only a "gradual drawdown," and only if Iraq has achieved a sufficient level of security and stability. "Let's have stability, and then the Americans can go home," one Iraqi store owner told Burns. Informed that President Bush was saying exactly the same thing, this man replied: "Then Bush has said it correctly".

-Robert Kagan and William Kristol
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mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Dec, 2005 10:48 am
JW,
Here is what I find the most telling from thae NYTimes article...

Quote:
Nearly a dozen current and former officials, who were granted anonymity because of the classified nature of the program, discussed it with reporters for The New York Times because of their concerns about the operation's legality and oversight.


Now,the same people that screamed and ranted about the supposed outing of Valerie Plame,and the leaking of classified info about her,have absolutely no problem with the leaking of this data,or the leaking of the info about the (supposed) secret jails we run overseas.
I guess its ok to leak classified data if it hurts the President,but not ok if it hurts anyone else.
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JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Dec, 2005 11:23 am
Foxfyre wrote:
The point here is that government agencies have been doing this stuff for a long time.


Smile You know that. I know that. That's why reading the comments in the "Spying on Americans" thread surprises me.

Take a look at this:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000BPG27Y/qid=1134832164/sr=8-1/ref=pd_bbs_1/002-9841551-3259256?n=507846&s=books&v=glance

I think what's really suspicious about the NYTimes leak is the timing.

Besides being in miserable shape economically, the NYTimes is also desperate to salvage their "position". They couldn't come right out and risk being seen as anti-democracy (the huge success of the Iraqi election), so they did the next best thing, which was to try to knock it off the front pages of most print media.

Pretty pathetic, but that's what happens to those in "panic" mode.
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JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Dec, 2005 11:29 am
Tico's Happy Days article wrote:
]The biggest story of this election, apart from its obvious milestone character, is the staggeringly high Sunni turnout


And who doesn't remember back in January when the left bloviated that a low Sunni turnout would be "bad".

Now we have a high Sunni turnout and ... you guessed it ... some on the left still say it's "bad".

LOL.
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JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Dec, 2005 11:40 am
MysteryMan...The DoubleStandard of the Democratic party continues to reveal itself and this is just another example, in my opinion.

Just like the 403-3 vote. Smile
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