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Bush supporters' aftermath thread

 
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Dec, 2005 12:23 pm
What point were you trying to make when you commented on it being down 80 points, dys?
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Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Dec, 2005 12:25 pm
That the 'good' gdp news didn't send the market rallying, I would guess.

Cycloptichorn
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dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Dec, 2005 12:26 pm
pretty simple tico, to take, as JG did, a single indicator of what the economy is doing is inane.
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JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Dec, 2005 12:28 pm
dyslexia wrote:
JustWonders wrote:
dyslexia wrote:
yes really, it's a clear indication that the economy is ----- well it's a clear indication that the economy is something I'm sure.


Giant and successful? Laughing

JG I can only assume you don't follow the stock market. the past 52 weeks has seen the DOW from a low of 9,961 to a high of 11,027 and today at the moment it is at 10,921.
Grand and successful?


I was commenting on your question about the ECONOMY.

<Which, thanks to Dubya's tax cuts has been rather grand and successful>

Laughing
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Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Dec, 2005 12:42 pm
dyslexia wrote:
pretty simple tico, to take, as JG did, a single indicator of what the economy is doing is inane.


Ahh, you were being subtle and nuanced. Gotcha.
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Dec, 2005 12:44 pm
Of course at this hour the Dow is up 123+. Not really a bad day at all.
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JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Dec, 2005 12:46 pm
I merely pointed out that the GDP number for October is 4.3%. Never said a word about the economy until the Dyslexic one asked a question.

Hmmmm.
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Dec, 2005 12:48 pm
And couple a bull market, great GDP numbers, unprecedented family wealth, unexpectedly good revenues into the national treasury, and more employers than not saying they will be hiring in 2006, I think we can safely say the economy is quite good.
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JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Dec, 2005 12:49 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
Of course at this hour the Dow is up 123+. Not really a bad day at all.


Right, Foxy Smile

I fully expect moveon.org will photoshop some fake soup lines (much as they photoshopped those pics of the Brits to look like American soldiers LOL) to put us in our proper places Smile
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Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Dec, 2005 12:51 pm
Quote:
unprecedented family wealth


You seem to have mistaken the word 'debt' for 'wealth.' The average family carries far more debt now than they did 5 years ago. The average pay rate is up .5% over the last 5 years.

Want numbers? Or would that be too shocking to yer worldview?

Cycloptichorn
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Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Dec, 2005 01:03 pm
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Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Dec, 2005 01:32 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Quote:
unprecedented family wealth


You seem to have mistaken the word 'debt' for 'wealth.' The average family carries far more debt now than they did 5 years ago. The average pay rate is up .5% over the last 5 years.

The two are not mutually exclusive. I haven't checked the stats, but family wealth may well be up because of high home ownership and a booming (and probably bubbling) housing market.
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Dec, 2005 02:08 pm
Quite right Thomas. The boom in home values has certainly escalated family wealth. The median family income remains unchanged in 2004 at something over $40K and given the creation of new jobs, most starting below the median, the large number of illegals who actually suppress wages, and this too is remarkable. Any increase in borrowing is far less indicative of 'need' but rather indicative of 'confidence'. People go into debt to buy houses and cars and furniture and other big ticket items when they are confident the income will be there to pay the debt, and that too drives the GDP and creates more jobs.

Times are good. You can't tell it from the media who doesn't want the current administration to get credit for any good news, but times are good.
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dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Dec, 2005 02:11 pm
yes of course times are good but you know last week when I tired to pay the gas and grocery bills with the added value of my real estate they refused.
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Dec, 2005 02:13 pm
Some people base their opinion of the economy on how well they are personally doing. Some base it on what the media says about it. And some base it on pretty good information. I prefer assessments from the last group.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Dec, 2005 02:24 pm
The poor in America are probably better off than the lower middle class in Third World nations. But when we are comparing the richest nations in the world, all of which have relatively high medians, this observation loses its force.

Specifically, the average U.S. income (by purchasing power) is 39 percent higher than Finland's, the lowest rich nation on our list. But U.S. poverty is 229 percent higher than Norway's, the lowest rich nation on that list; child poverty is 367 percent higher. (Compared to second-place Canada, the U.S. has 36 and 45 percent more poverty, respectively.) As you can see, American poverty is still greater in absolute terms than in other rich nations.
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Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Dec, 2005 02:25 pm
You're living in a fantasy world, Fox. Seriously.

The boom in home values hasn't created real wealth, becuase it isn't real value. The house which you bought for 150k 7 years ago may be valued at 230k due to market fluctuations, but it's not really worth that extra money; when the market goes back down, which it will do sooner or later, that money vanishes. So it isn't exactly the same as hard dollars of wealth.

Quote:
People go into debt to buy houses and cars and furniture and other big ticket items when they are confident the income will be there to pay the debt


Or when they have no other choice. Again, get real!

Total household debt has increased from 613 billion to 1000 billion in the last 4 years. That's a 63% increase in 4 years. This hardly seems like a number one would see in a healthy economy. Reading this should really worry any American:

http://www.federalreserve.gov/releases/z1/current/default.htm

Let's ask Paul Volcker:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A38725-2005Apr8.html

Quote:
But right now, those same boomers are spending like there's no tomorrow. If we can believe the numbers, personal savings in the United States have practically disappeared.
To be sure, businesses have begun to rebuild their financial reserves. But in the space of a few years, the federal deficit has come to offset that source of national savings.

We are buying a lot of housing at rising prices, but home ownership has become a vehicle for borrowing as much as a source of financial security. As a nation we are consuming and investing about 6 percent more than we are producing.

What holds it all together is a massive and growing flow of capital from abroad, running to more than $2 billion every working day, and growing. There is no sense of strain. As a nation we don't consciously borrow or beg. We aren't even offering attractive interest rates, nor do we have to offer our creditors protection against the risk of a declining dollar. Most of the time, it has been private capital that has freely flowed into our markets from abroad -- where better to invest in an uncertain world, the refrain has gone, than the United States?

More recently, we've become more dependent on foreign central banks, particularly in China and Japan and elsewhere in East Asia.

It's all quite comfortable for us. We fill our shops and our garages with goods from abroad, and the competition has been a powerful restraint on our internal prices. It's surely helped keep interest rates exceptionally low despite our vanishing savings and rapid growth.

And it's comfortable for our trading partners and for those supplying the capital. Some, such as China, depend heavily on our expanding domestic markets. And for the most part, the central banks of the emerging world have been willing to hold more and more dollars, which are, after all, the closest thing the world has to a truly international currency.

The difficulty is that this seemingly comfortable pattern can't go on indefinitely. I don't know of any country that has managed to consume and invest 6 percent more than it produces for long. The United States is absorbing about 80 percent of the net flow of international capital. And at some point, both central banks and private institutions will have their fill of dollars.


The economy only looks good if you don't know a goddamn thing about economics; pretty on the surface, trouble below.

Cycloptichorn
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Dec, 2005 02:27 pm
Paper money as a value to the home owner is zilch unless they sell their home - to move to a lesser cost area.

You can't spend equity in your home without incurring interest charges that now exceed 6 percent.

Try to figure this one out, fox.
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Dec, 2005 02:58 pm
I have figured it out. I sell my home, as many neighbors have done, and I net substantially more than I paid for the house. This is real wealth that I can borrow against should I need to or sell outright for the capital gains. Meanwhile I have a warm, secure, safe place to live for less money than a smaller apartment that does not build equity would cost. Now I may not know 'a goddam thing about economics' but I do read and listen to a lot of people who do know a 'goddam thing or two about economics' and they think we're doing just fine. I'll stick with the consensus from that group.

P.S. Anybody who isn't making money in today's market has a pretty crappy advisor I think.
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Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Dec, 2005 03:01 pm
Larger economic factors, such as massive trade deficits and mounting personal debt, rising healthcare costs, and a loss of manufacturing jobs don't worry you at all, Fox?

Quote:
Now I may not know 'a goddam thing about economics' but I do read and listen to a lot of people who do know a 'goddam thing or two about economics' and they think we're doing just fine. I'll stick with the consensus from that group.


The same people who say that voodoo economics helps our economy? I bet so.

Cycloptichorn
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