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Bush supporters' aftermath thread

 
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Nov, 2005 11:46 am
tico said:
Quote:
Why do you insist that I guess at what you intended to convey by posting Perle's article? Did you post it to illustrate what you view as the "arrogance and outright bullshit of the neoconservative/Cheney sort"? I hope not, since that clearly lends nothing to the issue of the propriety of Rockerfeller's 2002 visit with Assad.

You (and Cyclops) seem to think it was appropriate for Senator Rockerfeller to visit with the head of a known state supporter of terrorism, and discuss that it was his belief that Bush had made up his mind to invade Iraq. Right?

So I ask again ... what was your point?

(Note: I resisted the strong urge to type what my thoughts are about your level of intellectual capacity. Personal insults are so easy to throw, aren't they?)


foxfyre said...
Quote:
Did you miss the part about this U.S. senator advising a head of state that our president had already decided to go to war against Iraq? That was a rather important part of the point.


you said:
Quote:
Because he's the former head of the Senate Intelligence committee, going over to Syria and telling Bashar Assad his analysis of Bush's war strategy. The US was at war with Islamic terrorism, and Syria is a known supporter of terrorism. This is particularly troubling considering the suspicions that Iraqi WMD might have been transported to Syria. This revelation could mean Saddam had over a year to work out the transfer with Assad than previously contemplated. As I said, this should be investigated.


Both of you imply that Rockefeller's comments to Assad (in his opinion, Bush had decided to go to war) constitute a revelation of that which was secretive. Richard Perle's op ed to the NY Times (plus much else in public airing at the time) demonstrates how clear and openly understood that possibility actually was as of January 2001.

Now, if Bush actually did not want to go to war - which of course is what he said at the time and later - do you not suppose that numerous diplomatic missions and comminiques to Sadaam would have advanced the same threat? Or was Bush lying when he said he hadn't decided?

Of course, there is a further possibility that Rockefeller was commicating with the full knowledge of or at the behest of the administration or State.

There are no apparent or logical grounds to suggest that Rockefeller acted improperly.

Might there be something out of sight which makes his act improper? That's possible, though I can't imagine what it would be.

Cause for investigation? Maybe. Should there be one? Sure, if there is some real basis for concern rather than what I suspect is going on.

You make a further suggestion...that Rockefeller's statement permitted eight months of opportunity for Assad/Sadaam to hide weapons. That's not a sensible claim for the very same reasons.

As to 'personal remarks'... you may have noticed that your posts commonly gain a particular species of response from others very similar to my own. There's a reason for that. You've admitted to me that you play this rhetorical game with the end goal of winning arguments for "your side" (that's paraphrased, but you'll recognize it). Because that is the way you engage others here, we understand that your allegiance is to party and not to something other, like what is the full truth so well as you apprehend it. That's not always so, but almost always.
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Nov, 2005 01:17 pm
blatham wrote:
Both of you imply that Rockefeller's comments to Assad (in his opinion, Bush had decided to go to war) constitute a revelation of that which was secretive. Richard Perle's op ed to the NY Times (plus much else in public airing at the time) demonstrates how clear and openly understood that possibility actually was as of January 2001.


I'm sure you can come up with a good deal more pre-2002 opinion pieces suggesting that war with Saddam was necessary and adviseable, and imploring Bush to take action. But are you seriously asserting that Richard Perle's opinion piece in the Times -- made at a time when he had no more authority than "Joe Citizen" -- wherein he offers his opinion that Bush ought to go to war with Iraq, rises to the level of Senator John D. Rockefeller -- a member of the Senate Intelligence Committee -- telling Assad to his face that he believed Bush had already made up his mind to go to war with Iraq?

Quote:
Now, if Bush actually did not want to go to war - which of course is what he said at the time and later - do you not suppose that numerous diplomatic missions and comminiques to Sadaam would have advanced the same threat? Or was Bush lying when he said he hadn't decided?


What threat? The threat that was delivered some 8 months later? That threat?

Quote:
Of course, there is a further possibility that Rockefeller was commicating with the full knowledge of or at the behest of the administration or State.


Unlikely ... but perhaps the investigation would discover whether that was the case.

Quote:
There are no apparent or logical grounds to suggest that Rockefeller acted improperly.


Sure there are ... he has admitted to doing what he claims he did in January, 2002. There should be an investigation, and whether what he did was a violation of the Logan Act ought to be the subject of a grand jury inquiry.

Quote:
Might there be something out of sight which makes his act improper? That's possible, though I can't imagine what it would be.


Who knows, but there's enough in sight to call his actions into question; there does not seem to be any need to discover yet unknown facts to warrant an investigation.

Quote:
Cause for investigation? Maybe. Should there be one? Sure, if there is some real basis for concern rather than what I suspect is going on.


The basis for concern is the possibility that a crime was committed.

Quote:
You make a further suggestion...that Rockefeller's statement permitted eight months of opportunity for Assad/Sadaam to hide weapons. That's not a sensible claim for the very same reasons.


Why is it not sensible? Rockefeller reveals his belief to Assad ... Assad communicates with Saddam ... and their collusion to move WMD begins sooner than expected. I'm not saying that happened, but it's plausible.

Quote:
As to 'personal remarks'... you may have noticed that your posts commonly gain a particular species of response from others very similar to my own. There's a reason for that. You've admitted to me that you play this rhetorical game with the end goal of winning arguments for "your side" (that's paraphrased, but you'll recognize it). Because that is the way you engage others here, we understand that your allegiance is to party and not to something other, like what is the full truth so well as you apprehend it. That's not always so, but almost always.


My allegiance is not to party, but to my ideals. The inference that you are after the "truth" is laughable. You have certainly exhibited a dogged refusal to alter what appear to be your strongly-held beliefs. In any event, I'm not sure I see why that's any justification to resort to common insults, such as questioning my intelligence. If you're going to insult me, I expect you to be more subtle and clever. That would be preferred.

---

Let me finish with a speech from a certain US Senator:

Quote:
Statement of Senator John D. Rockefeller IV
on the Senate Floor
On the Iraq Resolution
October 10, 2002


MR. ROCKEFELLER: Mr. President, we are here today to debate one of the most difficult decisions I have had to make in my 18 years in the Senate. There is no doubt in my mind that Saddam Hussein is a despicable dictator, a war criminal, a regional menace, and a real and growing threat to the United States. The difficulty of this decision is that while Saddam Hussein represents a threat, each of the options for dealing with him poses serious risks, to America's servicemembers, to our citizens, and to our role in the world.

It is clear that none of the options that confront us is easy or risk free.

For all of us, the upcoming vote on this critical issue will reflect our best judgment on which path will minimize the risk to our fellow Americans -- because we all know that the risk cannot be eliminated. And that judgment will, in turn, depend on a complex interaction of many factors, some of which we do not know and perhaps cannot know.

It is clear that military operations against Saddam Hussein, of the sort that are being discussed, pose serious risks, and we should all admit that. Any military campaign runs very serious risks to our servicemembers. On paper we surely have an overwhelming advantage against Saddam Hussein -- in the skill, technology, and, of course, dedication of our armed forces.

We defeated Saddam quickly and conclusively in 1991, and in the decade since, our force effectiveness has improved dramatically, while many of Saddam's capabilities have deteriorated.

But a new battle against Saddam Hussein, if it comes to that, will be a different and more difficult battle. U.S. victory might be quick and painless -- one hopes so. But it might not. The American people need to know that a war against Saddam will have high costs, including loss of American lives.

Our confident assertions that Saddam Hussein will quickly be deposed by his own people have, in the past, been too optimistic. Presumably Saddam Hussein will be more determined to use all the weapons and tactics in his arsenal if he believes our ultimate goal is to remove him from power.

The Administration assures us our troops have equipment and uniforms that will protect them from that risk, should it arise. We can only hope to God they are right.

We also have to acknowledge that any military operations against Saddam Hussein pose potential risks to our own homeland, too. Saddam's government has contact with many international terrorist organizations that likely have cells here in the United States.


Finally, we also need to recognize that should we go to war with Iraq, it could have a serious impact on America's role in the world, and the way the rest of the world responds to American leadership.

We are told that if Saddam Hussein is overthrown, American soldiers will be welcomed into Baghdad with liberation parades. That may be true; in fact, the people who have suffered most at Saddam's hands are his own citizens.

But for many people around the world, an American-led victory over Saddam would not be a cause for celebration.

No matter how strong our case, there will inevitably be some who will see U.S.-led action against Iraq as a cause for concern.

At its most extreme, that concern feeds the terrorist paranoia that drives their mission to hurt America. We can affect how deep that sentiment runs by how we conduct ourselves, whether we work with allies, whether we show ourselves to be committed to the reconstruction of Iraq and to reconciliation with the Arab world. But we ignore it at our peril!

So, clearly there are many risks associated with the resolution we are considering today.

But it is equally clear that doing nothing and preserving the status quo also pose serious risks. Those risks are less visible, and their time frame is less certain. But after a great deal of consultation and soul-searching, I have come to the conclusion that the risks of doing nothing -- for our citizens and for our nation -- are too great to bear.

There is unmistakable evidence that Saddam Hussein is working aggressively to develop nuclear weapons and will likely have nuclear weapons within the next five years. And that may happen sooner if he can obtain access to enriched uranium from foreign sources -- something that is not that difficult in the current world. We also should remember we have always underestimated the progress Saddam has made in development of weapons of mass destruction.

When Saddam Hussein obtains nuclear capabilities, the constraints he feels will diminish dramatically, and the risk to America's homeland, as well as to America's allies, will increase even more dramatically. Our existing policies to contain or counter Saddam will become irrelevant.

Americans will return to a situation like that we faced in the Cold War, waking each morning knowing we are at risk from nuclear blackmail by a dictatorship that has declared itself to be our enemy. Only, back then, our communist foes were a rational and predictable bureaucracy; this time, our nuclear foe would be an unpredictable and often irrational individual, a dictator who has demonstrated that he is prepared to violate international law and initiate unprovoked attacks when he feels it serves his purposes to do so.

The global community -- in the form of the United Nations -- has declared repeatedly, through multiple resolutions, that the frightening prospect of a nuclear-armed Saddam cannot come to pass. But the U.N. has been unable to enforce those resolutions. We must eliminate that threat now, before it is too late.

But this isn't just a future threat. Saddam's existing biological and chemical weapons capabilities pose a very real threat to America, now. Saddam has used chemical weapons before, both against Iraq's enemies and against his own people. He is working to develop delivery systems like missiles and unmanned aerial vehicles that could bring these deadly weapons against U.S. forces and U.S. facilities in the Middle East.

And he could make those weapons available to many terrorist groups which have contact with his government, and those groups could bring those weapons into the U.S. and unleash a devastating attack against our citizens. I fear that greatly.

We cannot know for certain that Saddam will use the weapons of mass destruction he currently possesses, or that he will use them against us. But we do know Saddam has the capability. Rebuilding that capability has been a higher priority for Saddam than the welfare of his own people -- and he has ill-will toward America.

I am forced to conclude, on all the evidence, that Saddam poses a significant risk.

Some argue it would be totally irrational for Saddam Hussein to initiate an attack against the mainland United States, and they believe he would not do it. But if Saddam thought he could attack America through terrorist proxies and cover the trail back to Baghdad, he might not think it so irrational.


If he thought, as he got older and looked around an impoverished and isolated Iraq, that his principal legacy to the Arab world would be a brutal attack on the United States, he might not think it so irrational. And if he thought the U.S. would be too paralyzed with fear to respond, he might not think it so irrational.

Saddam has misjudged what he can get away with, and how the United States and the world will respond, many times before. At the end of the day, we cannot let the security of American citizens rest in the hands of someone whose track record gives us every reason to fear that he is prepared to use the weapons he has against his enemies.


As the attacks of September 11 demonstrated, the immense destructiveness of modern technology means we can no longer afford to wait around for a smoking gun. September 11 demonstrated that the fact that an attack on our homeland has not yet occurred cannot give us any false sense of security that one will not occur in the future. We no longer have that luxury.

September 11 changed America. It made us realize we must deal differently with the very real threat of terrorism, whether it comes from shadowy groups operating in the mountains of Afghanistan or in 70 other countries around the world, including our own.

There has been some debate over how "imminent" a threat Iraq poses. I do believe that Iraq poses an imminent threat, but I also believe that after September 11, that question is increasingly outdated. It is in the nature of these weapons, and the way they are targeted against civilian populations, that documented capability and demonstrated intent may be the only warning we get. To insist on further evidence could put some of our fellow Americans at risk. Can we afford to take that chance? We cannot!

The President has rightly called Saddam Hussein's efforts to develop weapons of mass destruction a grave and gathering threat to Americans. The global community has tried but failed to address that threat over the past decade. I have come to the inescapable conclusion that the threat posed to America by Saddam's weapons of mass destruction is so serious that despite the risks -- and we should not minimize the risks -- we must authorize the President to take the necessary steps to deal with that threat. And so I will vote for the Lieberman/McCain resolution.

This is a difficult vote, but I could not sleep knowing that faced with this grave danger to the people of my state and to all Americans, I had voted for nothing more than continuing the policies that have failed to address this problem in the past.


Two months ago, or even a month ago, I would have been reluctant to support this resolution. At the time, it appeared that the Administration's principal goal was a unilateral invasion of Iraq, without fully exploring every option to resolve this peacefully, without trying to enlist the support of other countries, and without any limitation on the use of U.S. force in the Middle East region. The original use-of-force resolution the White House sent to the Congress was far too broad in its scope, and ignored the possibility that diplomatic efforts might just be able to resolve this crisis without bloodshed.

Moreover, it appeared the Administration planned to cut back its efforts in the war on terrorism and shift all its attention and resources to Iraq. That would be a tragic mistake.

I believe the war against global terrorist networks remains the greatest current threat to the security of the American homeland and to our forces overseas, as we have seen in Kuwait earlier this week. America cannot be diverted or distracted from our war on terrorism.

In the past month or so, we have begun to see an encouraging shift in the Administration's approach. The President stated earlier this week that war is neither imminent nor unavoidable. The Administration has assured us that whatever action we take toward Iraq, it will not be permitted to divert resources or attention from the war on terrorism. And Secretary Powell has been working with the United Nations Security Council to put together a new resolution to make clear that Iraq must disarm or face the consequences.

We have already begun to see some encouraging movement on the issue of Iraqi disarmament. Other Security Council members (such as France and Russia), as well as other Arab states in the Middle East have begun to talk seriously about forcing Saddam to comply with the U.N. resolutions. And Saddam Hussein has begun to make offers on inspections and disarmament, offers that -- while inadequate, so far -- indicate he has at least begun to move off his hardline position against inspections.

Obviously, much important work remains to be done, and that will take tough negotiating with the other members of the United Nations, and a firm line with Iraq.

We need to be realistic about how best to move forward. Any headway we are making toward getting Saddam to disarm has not occurred in a vacuum. U.N. members did not just suddenly decide to debate a new resolution forcing Iraq to disarm; and Saddam Hussein did not just suddenly decide to re-invite U.N. inspectors and remove the roadblocks that had hindered their efforts in the past. Progress is occurring because the President told the United Nations General Assembly that if the U.N. is not prepared to enforce its resolutions on Iraqi disarmament, the United States will be forced to act.

At this point, America's best opportunity to move the United Nations and Iraq to a peaceful resolution of this crisis is by making clear the U.S. is prepared to act on our own, if necessary, as one nation, indivisible. Sometimes the rest of the world looks to America not just for the diversity of our debate, or the vitality of our ideals, but for the firm resolve that the world's leader must demonstrate if intractable global problems are to be solved.

And so, that is the context in which I am approaching this vote. This resolution does authorize the use of force if necessary.

Saddam Hussein represents a grave threat to the United States
, and I have concluded we must use force to deal with him if all other means fail. That is the core issue, and whether we vote on it now, or in January, or in six months time, that is the issue we all have to confront.

War, if it comes to that, will cost money I dearly wish we could use for other domestic priorities, to address the very real needs that West Virginia and other states face in this tough economy. But ultimately, defending America's citizens from danger is a responsibility whose costs we must bear.

But this is not just a resolution authorizing war; it is a resolution that could provide a path to peace.

I hope that by voting on this resolution now, while the negotiations at the United Nations are continuing, this resolution will show to the world that the American people are united in our resolve to deal with the Iraqi threat. And it will strengthen the hand of the Administration in making a final effort to try to get the U.N. to deal with this issue. Given the difficulty of trying to build a coalition in the United Nations, I could not, in good conscience, tie the President's hands.

The Administration is in negotiations on which the safety and security of all Americans depend; I believe we must give the President the authority he will need if there is any hope to bring those negotiations to a successful conclusion.

So, Mr. President, I will vote for the Lieberman/McCain resolution. Preventing a war with Saddam Hussein -- whether now or later -- must be our top priority, and I believe this resolution will strengthen the president's hand to resolve this crisis peacefully.

By my vote, I say to the United Nations and our allies that America is united in our resolve to deal with Saddam Hussein, and that the U.N. must act to eliminate his weapons of mass destruction. By my vote, I say to Saddam Hussein, "Disarm, or the United States will be forced to act."

September 11 has forever changed the world. We may not like it, but that is the world in which we live. When there is a grave threat to Americans' lives, we have a responsibility to take action to prevent it.


LINK

Oh, yeah ... Bush lied .... sure.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Nov, 2005 01:29 pm
Quote:
made at a time when he (Pelre) had no more authority than "Joe Citizen"


This time never in fact existed; Perle has been high up in the planning of this war before Bush was even considered to be the puppet president.

Quote:
Oh, yeah ... Bush lied .... sure.


Sure he did. Why?

Because there were no WMD in Iraq when we got there. And the person who had the most ability to see any evidence that was contrary to the assumption that Saddam was a bad guy and had WMD, was Bush.

And there is some evidence that he, or his advisors, ignored or failed to pass along any evidence that was contrary to their case for war.

Therefore there is a good chance that Bush, or his advisors, did lie; by omitting the evidence that would have cast doubt on those factors which were presented as solid.

A growing number of senators on the Dem side are coming out and admitting that they made the wrong choice on Iraq. More will follow. The public firmly seems to believe that the WH is hiding something; most polls show a lack of trust in Bush and a lack of trust in the Bushco. ability to run the country and prosecute the war.

It must really chap your ass, lol

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Nov, 2005 01:35 pm
What authority did Perle have at the time he wrote that? Apparent or otherwise?


Did Rockefeller lie? Did Kerry? Did Clinton (either one)?
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Nov, 2005 01:46 pm
Ticomaya wrote:
What authority did Perle have at the time he wrote that? Apparent or otherwise?



Perle was the chairman of the Defense Policy Board Advisory Committee at the time; a very influential position in the formation of our defense policy.

Perle was also one of the founding members of the PNAC and a top neo-con. His desire to go to war in Iraq pre-dates the Bush admin by more than two years.

Quote:
Did Rockefeller lie? Did Kerry? Did Clinton (either one)?


About the situation in Iraq? It is hard to say. Bill Clinton probably did in order to take some pressure off of his legal problems back in 1998. I don't know so much about whether the Senators did; it is quite apparent that they were not given the entire picture when it came to the intelligence leading up to the war, and therefore it is hard to say that they were not mislead by the Administration.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Nov, 2005 02:07 pm
Actually, tico, I've not laid slander to your intelligence, merely to your credulity, the acuteness of your partisanship, and your rhetorical methods.

You say your allegiance is to your ideals, not your party. That is hard to credit at this point. You consistently bring up the issue of Clinton's lie and equally consistently refuse to admit those instances where administration officials have lied. There is absolutely no value to be gained from me listing them because you will not apply your ideals, you'll apply your partisanship and predictable rhetorical moves instead. That's the way you play here.

Which isn't to say I'd rather you weren't part of the community here because that wouldn't reflect my feelings. You're a likeable guy in a lot of ways. It's just that god, to test me, made you an American.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Nov, 2005 02:15 pm
Historical note: When Reagan and Gorbachev, at Reykjavik, decided to get rid of their nuclear arsenals, guess which advisor on Reagan's team talked Reagan out of this incredible breakthrough which Reagan really wished to achieve? Richard Perle.
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Nov, 2005 02:29 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Ticomaya wrote:
What authority did Perle have at the time he wrote that? Apparent or otherwise?



Perle was the chairman of the Defense Policy Board Advisory Committee at the time; a very influential position in the formation of our defense policy.

Perle was also one of the founding members of the PNAC and a top neo-con. His desire to go to war in Iraq pre-dates the Bush admin by more than two years.


Yes ... in other words, he had no authority.
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Nov, 2005 02:32 pm
blatham wrote:
Actually, tico, I've not laid slander to your intelligence, merely to your credulity, the acuteness of your partisanship, and your rhetorical methods.


I was specifically referring to this: "The question is whether or not you are sharp enough to understand ..."

Quote:
You say your allegiance is to your ideals, not your party. That is hard to credit at this point. You consistently bring up the issue of Clinton's lie and equally consistently refuse to admit those instances where administration officials have lied. There is absolutely no value to be gained from me listing them because you will not apply your ideals, you'll apply your partisanship and predictable rhetorical moves instead. That's the way you play here.


It behooves me, at this time, to remind you that Clinton admitted he lied, and there is no proof that Bush lied. So while you would like to insist that my beliefs in that regard are driven by mere partisanship, you cannot deny that they are supported by facts, while yours are supported only by your wishes and desires.

:wink:
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Nov, 2005 02:45 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
I'm still waiting for Blatham, McTag, et al, to comment on Morkat's post re Clinton's speech. They say Bush lied but Clinton didn't? Somebody explain this to me, please.


I don't see this from a partisan viewpoint and because I am anti-Bush it does not follow I am pro-Clinton.

But, do I think Clinton would have committed US forces on a full-on invasion of Iraq without a clear UN mandate, and a clue as to how to "win" the "peace"? I don't think he would.
0 Replies
 
Mortkat
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Nov, 2005 03:06 pm
McTag has, apparently, a clear view into the mind of President Clinton when he says that he does not think that Clinton would not have committed US forces on a full on invasion of Iraq without a UN mandate and a view as to how to win the peace.

He apparently does not remember that George W. Bush DID NOT launch a pre-emptive missle strike at Iraq without congressiona approval.

President Bush did go to the Congress for authority to send forces to Iraq and did receive that authority in a clear cut bi-partisan vote.

Now, the "Kennedies"--the moral arbiters of the US Senate and saying that they were misled.

I await proof, beyond the shadow of a doubt, as to exactly how they were "misled"---innuendo is not sufficient.

Their charges are politics- pure and simple--and they will be stunned after Nov. 2006 to discover that they still do not control the House or the Senate and will have to face the future with another conservative judge in place--Judge Alito--as well as a man who has been quite close to President Bush who will have the levers of the economy in his hand--Ben Bernanke--replacing the Maestro Alan Greenspan.
0 Replies
 
Mortkat
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Nov, 2005 03:14 pm
I know that Mr. Blatham will not reply to this poist since he has declared himself to be in a higher realm that some of us but I am constrained to point out that he( I must point out that in past posts he has commented rather acerbically on my spelling "mistakes") has made an egregious error.

I must state categorically that Rockerfeller WAS NOT, as Blatham said--"Commicating( sic) with the full knowledge of or at the behest of the administration or state."

Blatham- 11/15/2005- 10:46AM
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Nov, 2005 03:16 pm
While McTag only wrote, he thought that Clinton ... - which let you answer: "McTag has, apparently, a clear view into the mind of President Clinton" - you obviously are much closer to Blatham than anybody else.
0 Replies
 
Mortkat
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Nov, 2005 03:45 pm
You may be correct. Walter Hinteler. However, I am always chary of telling people that I think that someone thought such and such. I always try to give "evidence" that they did indeed think that way.

McTag's statement that he did not think that Clinton would have committed US forces on a full scale invasion has no referent with which I am aware except the recesses of McTag's mind.

However, I am open to persuasion. If McTag can produce evidence that Clinton would not have---etc.
I will listen carefully.

Given Clinton's adolescent inablity to control himself and the fit of pique he asserted in his last two weeks in office when he pardoned all kinds of criminal types, I THINK that there is nothing he would not have done.

Note- Walter Hinteler--I gave reasons why I thought that Clinton would have, etc...

McTag did not...

Cheers- Walter Hinteler
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Nov, 2005 02:11 am
As I tried to convey before, just because I believe Bushco to be wrong, does not make Clinton right on the war issues we are (I am) discussing.

I think it is limiting for Americans to see everything in terms of Rep vs Dem, them and us, as so many seem to do, even on these pages.

But since you ask, Clinton is an intelligent and experienced politician, and a pragmatist, IMO. He is not in hock to neo-con philosophy and christian fundamentalist ideology, and knows the value of international cooperation, unlike the present miserable incumbent in all of these respects. It is inconceivable therfore he would have commissioned an invasion under the circumstances we have seen.
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Nov, 2005 05:44 am
McTag wrote:
As I tried to convey before, just because I believe Bushco to be wrong, does not make Clinton right on the war issues we are (I am) discussing.

I think it is limiting for Americans to see everything in terms of Rep vs Dem, them and us, as so many seem to do, even on these pages.

But since you ask, Clinton is an intelligent and experienced politician, and a pragmatist, IMO. He is not in hock to neo-con philosophy and christian fundamentalist ideology, and knows the value of international cooperation, unlike the present miserable incumbent in all of these respects. It is inconceivable therfore he would have commissioned an invasion under the circumstances we have seen.


Haiti,1994
No UN mandate,no WMD in Haiti,no threat to the US.
BUT,Clinton ordered an invasion anyway.

Bosnia.
No threat to the US,no WMD,no UN mandate.
Clinton ordered war and an invasion.
We still occupy Bosnia.

So,dont say he wouldnt do it,he did.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Nov, 2005 06:07 am
mysteryman wrote:
We still occupy Bosnia.


Quote:
Today [that's as of September 2005] less than 250 U.S. servicemembers remain [in Bosnis], part of a NATO presence of roughly 300 headquartered in Sarajevo to assist with military reform, pursue war criminals, and combat terrorism.

source: American Forces Press Service/Sept. 23, 2005

You got better sources?
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Nov, 2005 06:12 am
mysteryman wrote:
Haiti,1994
No UN mandate,no WMD in Haiti,no threat to the US.
BUT,Clinton ordered an invasion anyway.


16 Oct 1993--The UN Security Council authorizes military force, including a naval blockade, to enforce the sanctions. Other countriesjoin the naval blockade.

Dec 1993--Prime Minister Malval resigns.

5 May 1994--The UN Security Council gives the Haitian military ruler fifteen days to leave the country. The warning includes the threat to remove him by force.

6 May 1994--The Security Council approves tighter sanctions, including banning travel by Haitian military leaders, their families, and their supporters and banning all commerce to and from Haiti except food, medicine, cooking oil, and journalistic supplies.

11 May 1994--The junta installs Supreme Court Justice Emile Jonassaint, 81, as provisional president of Haiti.

10 Jun l994--President Clinton announces more sanctions against the Haitian government, including the cessation of commercial air traffic from the United States and the banning of financial transactions between the countries.

12 Jun 1994--In response to the tightening of sanctions, the junta declares a state of emergency.

4 Jul 1994--Up to 150 Haitian refugees die when their boat capsizes less that a half-mile from the coast of Haiti.

5 Jul 1994--Overwhelmed by thousands of boat people, the United States changes its policy, barring thousands of Haitians from the United States, who are subsequently detained at the U.S. Naval Base at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. Other Haitians are diverted to "safe havens" in other Caribbean countries.

7 Jul 1994--Washington sends 2,000 U. S. Marines to waters off Haiti and states that U.S. forces have been practicing for an invasion.

31 Jul 1994--UN Security Council Resolution 940 allows for the "application of all necessary means to restore democracy in Haiti." This enables a military intervention by the United States. Reacting to the resolution, the military junta declares a state of siege.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Nov, 2005 06:13 am
I love Germans so much that I want two of them here on a2k.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Nov, 2005 06:15 am
Well, I might consider to join here, but only after I've seen you live in Chicago! :wink:
0 Replies
 
 

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