Bush supporters' aftermath thread

Fox, Quit twisting what people said about responsibiity. They are all responsible for their failures. Get accurate information on how FEMA cut funds, and ask the right questions on how the myjor was supposed to coordinate the transportation of the whole of NO population to safer ground. Nobody here is blaming the feds 100 percent; but they were too slow to respond to this crisis. Get it?

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It's a simple point.

For anyone here to have much concern as to a city mayor's competence and ethics, he or she would be a citizen of that city.

Likewise, re a governor...is he your governor?

But all Americans are affected by the competence and ethics of a President. And if he is the President of the world's most powerful and intrusive government, then the whole world has some valid concerns.

Simple stuff.

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Just to put this crisis into perspective, our president flew from Crawford, Texas, to Washington DC to sign an executive directive to the Supreme Court to intercede in a private, family matter about a brain-damaged woman. Yet, he responded three days late in the crisis in NO while on vacation where urgency was of the upmost importance. Quit trying to protect this president; he's a stupid ass.

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cicerone imposter wrote:

Fox, Quit twisting what people said about responsibiity. They are all responsible for their failures. Get accurate information on how FEMA cut funds, and ask the right questions on how the myjor was supposed to coordinate the transportation of the whole of NO population to safer ground. Nobody here is blaming the feds 100 percent; but they were too slow to respond to this crisis. Get it?

Apparently,there is another group that bears responsibility for this also.
I heard something on the radio,and after a little research,I confirmed what I heard.

Apparently,environmental activists successfully sued the ACE and the govt,to PREVENt the building of flood gates that would have helped prevent the flooding.

I refer you to these sites...

http://www.libertypost.org/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=108613

From ths site we get this...
"As radical environmentalists continue to blame the ferocity of Hurricane Katrina's devastation on President Bush's ecological policies, a mainstream Louisiana media outlet inadvertently disclosed a shocking fact: Environmentalist activists were responsible for spiking a plan that may have saved New Orleans. Decades ago, the Green Left - pursuing its agenda of valuing wetlands and topographical "diversity" over human life - sued to prevent the Army Corps of Engineers from building floodgates that would have prevented significant flooding that resulted from Hurricane Katrina.

In the 1970s, the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers' Lake Pontchartrain and Vicinity Hurricane Barrier Project planned to build fortifications at two strategic locations, which would keep massive storms on the Gulf of Mexico from causing Lake Pontchartrain to flood the city. An article in the May 28, 2005, New Orleans Times-Picayune stated, "Under the original plan, floodgate-type structures would have been built at the Rigolets and Chef Menteur passes to block storm surges from moving from the Gulf into Lake Pontchartrain."

"The floodgates would have blocked the flow of water from the Gulf of Mexico, through Lake Borgne, through the Rigolets [and Chef Mentuer] into Lake Pontchartrain," declared Professor Gregory Stone, the James P. Morgan Distinguished Professor and Director of the Coastal Studies Institute of Louisiana State University. "This would likely have reduced storm surge coming from the Gulf and into the Lake Pontchartrain," Professor Stone told Michael P. Tremoglie during an interview on September 6. The professor concluded, "[T]hese floodgates would have alleviated the flooding of New Orleans caused by Hurricane Katrina."

Notice the source of the original story...New Orleans Times-Picayune

Then there is this...

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-surge9sep09,0,3965896.story?track=mostemailedlink

"A Barrier That Could Have Been
Congress OKd a project to protect New Orleans 40 years ago, but an environmentalist suit halted it. Some say it could have worked.

By Ralph Vartabedian and Peter Pae, Times Staff Writer

In the wake of Hurricane Betsy 40 years ago, Congress approved a massive hurricane barrier to protect New Orleans from storm surges that could inundate the city.

But the project, signed into law by President Johnson, was derailed in 1977 by an environmental lawsuit. Now the question is: Could that barrier have protected New Orleans from the damage wrought by Hurricane Katrina?

"If we had built the barriers, New Orleans would not be flooded," said Joseph Towers, the retired chief counsel for the Army Corps of Engineers New Orleans district.

If you go to this page...

http://lawcrawler.findlaw.com/cgi-bin/lc.pl?sites=wlegal&entry=+Rigolets+and+Chef+Menteur+passes+

You will see that there are 272 listings about this.

So,a lawsuit filed by environmentalists caused the ACE to cancel the plan that might have saved No.

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Going back 40 years is moot; it doesn't do anything for the current crisis. People keep building homes in Florida and on the hills of California where natural disasters have destroyed billions of dollars worth of property over and over; yet they continue to build on the same sites.

People will continue to build homes and businesses in unsafe areas. That our governments doesn't control them is the failure of all governments - and home/business owners. I don't understand why it continues to happen, but it does.

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They keep building there because we keep giving them money after their house is destroyed. Stop giving them money to rebuild and my guess is they would go somewhere else.

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Logic and fiscal responsibility is not a strength of our governments.

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By some logic, if I have to place all the blame on the President because I am not a citizen of the State of Louisiana or the City of New Orleans and thus however badly their governments screw up is moot, then conversely those who are not citizens of the United States would have no basis to complain about the President either nor can we cast any criticism on any other nation of which we are not a citizen. That also means that if you are not a member of a certain religion you cannot fault it for anything, and if you are not a woman or a father you have no stake in abortion or if you have not been in military uniform you have no say in what is good or not good for the military to do....and....etc.....

Of course we are all members of the universe, so that pretty much leaves the only one to criticize is God. I don't think he's going to take the rap for people who didn't do their job, however. Of course for those of you who not believe in God, it leaves nobody at all to blame.

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Heh.

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BBB
It is the fault of city and county government that approves permits to developers to build houses where they shouldn't. Building permits control the use of unsafe land for housing.

Put the blame where it belongs.

BBB

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Most likely tis all San Andreas Fault.

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Right-Wing Talking Points on Katrina Speech
I thought I'd help out the Bush supporters by posting the talking points already distributed to Republicans so they don't have to go to the trouble of posting them here. And you all thought I couldn't be nice. ---BBB

Right-Wing Talking Points on Katrina Speech

Think Progress obtained the following talking points on President Bush's primetime speech on Katrina tonight that were distributed to right-wing pundits. The text is as follows:
--------------------------------------------------

President Katrina Speech Talkers:

* America and the Gulf Coast are recovering from one of the greatest natural disasters this country has ever faced.

* Tonight President Bush will talk about how there is some optimism that we can see as we move forward. We're going to build a better Gulf Coast, a better New Orleans and we'll work with local officials to make sure that happens.

* This will be a massive funding effort at every level of government. We shouldn't just look at government - we're seeing private charities, and the American people's enormous compassion.

* There were breakdowns of communication and planning at all levels of government - federal, state and local levels. It is very critical we learn why those breakdowns took place in the first place.

* Many parts of this will be chalked up to the fact it was one of the worst storms our country has ever faced. But there were things in a post-9/11 world that our government at all levels should be doing better and President Bush more than anybody else wants to find out why it took place and how it took place to make sure it doesn't happen again.

* Bottom line now is all levels of government must take responsibility. This President is taking responsibility and what we have to do now is look forward.

* Senator Frist and Speaker Hastert have indicated that Congress will conduct a thorough investigation modeled after some of the most serious investigations that Congress has ever undertaken: the 1973 Watergate Committee, the 1987 Iran Contra Committee, the 1994 and 1995 Whitewater Committees and the 1997 Campaign Finance investigation.

* Tonight President Bush will talk about specifically what we'll talk about to help these tens of thousands of people who are literally living with only the shirts of their backs spread out throughout the country. We have to have a strategy for education and heath care, and he'll spell those out.

* It's wrong to say it's either winning the war on terror or funding aftermath of Katrina. We have to do both that means we'll have to cut spending where else to make sure we are fiscally prudent with the taxpayer's dollars.

* There's always discussion about raising taxes but right when businesses and people are trying to get back on their feet in the gulf coast region, the worst thing we can do with these families is pop them with another tax.

* This is going to require difficult decisions in Washington. It's going to be important that we don't have the same ol' same ol' that we see in Washington. Tough choices will be to have made and President Bush is willing to do that.

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blatham wrote:

It's a simple point.

For anyone here to have much concern as to a city mayor's competence and ethics, he or she would be a citizen of that city.

Likewise, re a governor...is he your governor?

But all Americans are affected by the competence and ethics of a President. And if he is the President of the world's most powerful and intrusive government, then the whole world has some valid concerns.

Simple stuff.

Very simple indeed. Also very self-serving coming from a Canadian living in Manhattan who doesn't like the president. Are YOU then willing to accept an obligatiion of silence with respect to our Federal government?

The fact is that, apart from some mostly vague accusations of delay in providing back up resources, there is no major fault to be found with the Federal government. Alternatively it is quite obvious that both the state and the city failed miserably in three areas that are their exclusive responsibility - (1) Emergency and evacuation planning; (2) The timely and efficient execution of their own emergency plans; and (3) Timely decision-making and communication with respect to the unfolding emergency.

For all of these agencies there is also the matter of the scale of this disaster and the lack of any comparable reference points against which to measure success or failure. When is the last time any city of over a million people had to be evacuated in the face of an immediate disaster? Is the death and destruction that resulted in New Orleans any worse than what befel Kyoto Japan a few years ago after the earthquakes tha hit it? Both events involved partly, but not exactly, predictable natural phenomena; both involved pre event precautions and infrastructure elements that were not adequate to deal with the natural event; and both involved emergency response by local and national governments.

It is perhaps natural for liberals (as we use that word) who desire a large, intrusive national government to govern and reguulate most aspects of our lives to fault our Federal government for not living up to their ideal in this matter. However this necessarily involves a comparison of the real world with their imaginary one. The fact is that the majority of Americans do not want such a government. They favor greater local autonomy and control, and generally less government than the left wing of our political specturum. With respect to that political view the failures in New Orleans are, by definition, more local, just as they are by definition more national in the eyes of those who take an opposite (and minority) view.

The most remarkable thing about this discussion so far is the degree to which it has descended into a vitriolic political fault finding exercise, and the degree to which the real underlying objective issues have been ignored. I fear that A2K is becoming more like the late, unlamented ABUZZ threads that I abandoned several years ago.

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washingtonpost.com
Who's in Charge? Karl Rove!

By Dan Froomkin
Special to washingtonpost.com
Thursday, September 15, 2005; 12:00 PM

All you really need to know about the White House's post-Katrina strategy -- and Bush's carefully choreographed address on national television tonight -- is this little tidbit from the ninth paragraph of Elisabeth Bumiller and Richard W. Stevenson's story in the New York Times this morning:

"Republicans said Karl Rove, the White House deputy chief of staff and Mr. Bush's chief political adviser, was in charge of the reconstruction effort."

Rove's leadership role suggests quite strikingly that any and all White House decisions and pronouncements regarding the recovery from the storm are being made with their political consequences as the primary consideration. More specifically: With an eye toward increasing the likelihood of Republican political victories in the future, pursuing long-cherished conservative goals, and bolstering Bush's image.

That is Rove's hallmark.

Rove, Bush's long-time political adviser and the "architect" of Bush's ascendancy, was rewarded after the 2004 election with a position at the White House with overt policy responsibilities. But whereas in some previous White Houses, governance took precedence over campaigning once the election was safely over, Rove has shown no sign of ever putting policy goals above political ones. (See my Rove profile.)

Tonight's speech promises two classic features of the Rove approach.

Bush will take advantage of powerful imagery -- the Associated Press reports the speech will be held in historic Jackson Square, with the famous St. Louis Cathedral as a backdrop -- and he won't risk having anyone around who might disagree with him or ask an impertinent question. In fact, the AP says, there won't be a live audience at all. (And even the journalists covering the event are being told they won't be allowed to stray from their press vans.)

As for the speech itself, it will inevitably seek to answer any naysaying about Bush by recasting him in the heroic, leadership role he played after the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks -- while advocating a range of measures that are dear to the conservative political agenda.

It will, on the other hand, feature one very unRovian tactic. Typically, it is the Democrats who are blamed for wanting to solve problems by throwing money at them. But tonight, Bush will be the one throwing the money around.

Will it work? Rove has an astonishing track record of success. But at the same time, Bush finds himself today a deeply unpopular president according to the opinion polls, particularly damaged by his lackluster response to the protracted, televised suffering in New Orleans.

And Rove himself has not been at his best of late. Unlike many of Bush's advisers, who have plausible deniability for his initial under-reaction because they weren't with him on vacation, Rove was tagging along with the president, blithely touring the West Coast even as the Gulf Coast drowned. Rove is haunted by the possibility of indictment by a federal grand jury investigating the leak of a CIA agent. And according to Time magazine, he was briefly hospitalized last week with painful kidney stones.

Even many of the president's traditional allies say Bush -- and by extension, Rove -- have been off their political game. We'll know better by tomorrow morning whether that continues to be the case.

The Speech

Bush's speech is being carried on all the major networks tonight at 9 ET.

Nedra Pickler writes for the Associated Press: "It is Bush's first formal prime-time speech during more than two weeks of suffering along the Gulf, with most of the victims chased out by floodwaters in New Orleans. Bush planned to speak from the heart of the French Quarter, while across the city officials were still working to pump out waters and collect bodies left behind.

"Bush planned to show sympathy for the misery brought on by the killer storm while charting a hopeful vision for the future. Many people, including members of the president's party, have said he should have given that kind of speech soon after the hurricane made landfall along the coast on Aug. 29. . . .

"Rather than speak before a live audience, Bush planned to stand alone and broadcast his message directly into the camera from the evacuated city's historic Jackson Square, according to a White House official speaking on condition of anonymity since the site had not been announced.

"The square and its most famed landmark, the St. Louis Cathedral, were on high enough ground to avoid flooding but did not escape damage from Katrina's 145-mph winds. Two massive oak trees outside the 278-year-old cathedral came out by the roots, ripping out a 30-foot section of ornamental iron fence and snapping off the thumb and forefinger of the outstretched hand on a marble statue of Jesus."

Jonathan Weisman and Jim VandeHei write in The Washington Post: "President Bush will call tonight for an unprecedented federal commitment to rebuild New Orleans and other areas obliterated by Hurricane Katrina, putting the United States on pace to spend more in the next year on the storm's aftermath than it has over three years on the Iraq war, according to White House and congressional officials.

"With the federal tab for Katrina already nearly quadruple the cost of the country's previous most expensive natural disaster cleanup, Bush plans to offer federal assistance to help flood victims find jobs, get housing and health care, and attend school, according to White House aides. . . .

"Bush and Republican congressional leaders . . . are calculating that the U.S. economy can safely absorb a sharp spike in spending and budget deficits, and that the only way to regain public confidence after the stumbling early response to the disaster is to spend whatever it takes to rebuild the region and help Katrina's victims get back on their feet."

Judy Keen writes in USA Today: "Dan Bartlett, Bush's counselor, said the president will reflect on 'the horrific suffering' in the region and 'outline the beginnings of a vision of the future.' . . .

"Two Bush advisers with direct knowledge of the speech said the president is considering the appointment of a high-profile 'czar' to oversee recovery efforts. But one said the White House is checking whether that would be allowed under federal law."

Kirsten Scharnberg and Jeff Zeleny write in the Chicago Tribune: "The White House is hopeful the address will stem the criticism of the administration's response to the relief effort. A senior administration official said Bush's approval rating, which is hovering at the lowest point of his presidency, also is tied to questions about the war in Iraq. A draft of the speech Wednesday had the president repeating his claim of full responsibility for the government's response, a point of contrition that advisers hope turns the tide of ill will against Bush."

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Re: Right-Wing Talking Points on Katrina Speech

BumbleBeeBoogie wrote:

I thought I'd help out the Bush supporters by posting the talking points already distributed to Republicans so they don't have to go to the trouble of posting them here. And you all thought I couldn't be nice. ---BBB

The implication is that "talking points" are B.S.

Let's see:

Right-Wing Talking Points on Katrina Speech

Think Progress obtained the following talking points on President Bush's primetime speech on Katrina tonight that were distributed to right-wing pundits. The text is as follows:
--------------------------------------------------

President Katrina Speech Talkers:

* America and the Gulf Coast are recovering from one of the greatest natural disasters this country has ever faced.

They are

* Tonight President Bush will talk about how there is some optimism that we can see as we move forward. We're going to build a better Gulf Coast, a better New Orleans and we'll work with local officials to make sure that happens.

He did.

* This will be a massive funding effort at every level of government. We shouldn't just look at government - we're seeing private charities, and the American people's enormous compassion.

There will, we should and we have.

* There were breakdowns of communication and planning at all levels of government - federal, state and local levels. It is very critical we learn why those breakdowns took place in the first place.

There were and it is.

* Many parts of this will be chalked up to the fact it was one of the worst storms our country has ever faced. But there were things in a post-9/11 world that our government at all levels should be doing better and President Bush more than anybody else wants to find out why it took place and how it took place to make sure it doesn't happen again.

They will, it was, there are, and while there's a touch of hyperbole here, I'm sure Bush does want to find out why and how it took place and to make sure it won't happen again.

* Bottom line now is all levels of government must take responsibility. This President is taking responsibility and what we have to do now is look forward.

They must, he has and we do

* Senator Frist and Speaker Hastert have indicated that Congress will conduct a thorough investigation modeled after some of the most serious investigations that Congress has ever undertaken: the 1973 Watergate Committee, the 1987 Iran Contra Committee, the 1994 and 1995 Whitewater Committees and the 1997 Campaign Finance investigation.

True enough.

* Tonight President Bush will talk about specifically what we'll talk about to help these tens of thousands of people who are literally living with only the shirts of their backs spread out throughout the country. We have to have a strategy for education and heath care, and he'll spell those out.

We do; he did.

* It's wrong to say it's either winning the war on terror or funding aftermath of Katrina. We have to do both that means we'll have to cut spending where else to make sure we are fiscally prudent with the taxpayer's dollars.

OK, I can see someone disagreeing with this, but BS? I don't think so.

* There's always discussion about raising taxes but right when businesses and people are trying to get back on their feet in the gulf coast region, the worst thing we can do with these families is pop them with another tax.

First foray into BS. Although there is always talk about raising taxes, and rasing taxes is not the answer, but there's probably a way to do so without "popping" these families with the tax (e.g tax credits), however I don't really think the rest of the countries need to be "popped" at this or any other time.

* This is going to require difficult decisions in Washington. It's going to be important that we don't have the same ol' same ol' that we see in Washington. Tough choices will be to have made and President Bush is willing to do that.

It is and whether or not Bush makes them will remain to be seen.

All in all a pretty fair and accurate set of points. BBB, you've done a service to all of us and not just the Bush supporters.

Quite a departure from the nature of left wing Katrina talking points:

*The Tragedy would never have happened if most of the National Guard and its equipment from the three affected states were not in Iraq, but back home where they belong.

*The Tragedy would never have happened if Bush has spent the surplus he inherited from Clinton on improving the NO levees.

*Karl Rove masterminded a cynical campaign to smear the democratic Governor of LA, and mayor of NO. The photos of unused school buses sitting in parking lots were a fake.

*America's long addition to racisim was revealed, yet again, by The Tragedy.

*If anyone in the Republican government really cared about the poor, The Tragedy would never have happened.

*The media deliberately focused on the black people who were looting, and kept their cameras off the white looters, to reinforce terrible stereotypes.

*Because of The Tragedy, the Senate should not confirm Judge Roberts.

Did I miss any?

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Walter Hinteler wrote:

I really like this human note

Quote:
World News

September 15, 2005

President Bush writes a note to Condoleezza Rice during a Security Council meeting (Rick Wilking/Reuters)

'Excuse me Condi , can I go to the bathroom?'

By Philippe Naughton, Times Online

President Bush had a more pressing worry than terrorism or reforming the United Nations during a Security Counil meeting in New York yesterday - the leader of the world's only superpower wanted to go the loo.
source: the (UK) Times

Deja vu all over again ...

Quote:

Bush 'Potty Note' was a fake

(JND) - Reuters News has acknowledged the Bush 'Potty Note' photo spread after his United Nations speech was enhanced using Adobe photoshop ...

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Wouldn't you think these esteemed news services would be checking this stuff before they spread it all over he universe?

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georgeob1 wrote:

The fact is that, apart from some mostly vague accusations of delay in providing back up resources, there is no major fault to be found with the Federal government.

What bunk. FEMA does not require permission from the governor. It is Federally funded,and needs no permission from any state government to do what Congress funded it to do-save lives, commence rescue operations, and so much more.

Because Governor Blanco did not agree for the Federal government to take over the entire city of New Orleans before the storm hit, the Bush supporters are maintaining that the Feds could only sit idly by and watch it happen.

Another variation on this theme is that FEMA "are not first responders".

This is completely false.

FEMA are first responders, as the following quote shows, and they DO NOT have to wait for the city to be turned over to them before they can commence preparing before the storm, or commencing rescue operations after it.

Please note this quote from FEMA's own website, bragging about how well they did Florida in 2004. FEMA are both preparers and rescuers. It is NOT necessary for the governor to sign over control of the whole city for them to act.

FEMA, in it's press release, wrote:

*A first shipment of 30,000 tarps is en route to Atlanta, Ga., to be pre-staged for delivery to areas affected by Frances once the storm has cleared.

*FEMA is working to provider 10 trailers of generators at the request of Florida that will be used to provide power to critical facilities affected by the hurricane. Generators will be staged at Warner Robbins Air Force Base.

**Two Disaster Medical Assistance Teams (DMAT) have been deployed to Florida to support medical facilities and hospitals that are not fully operational following the storm. Two additional DMATs are staged in Atlanta, three are enroute to Atlanta, and one Veterinary Medical Assistance Team is on standby. An additional four DMATs have been placed on alert, The DMATs are comprised of doctors, nurses and medical technicians trained to handle trauma, pediatrics, surgery and mental health problems. DMATs bring truckloads of medical equipment and supplies with them.

*Five pharmaceutical caches, containing emergency medical supplies, are being pre-positioned, and are currently en route to Atlanta and Tampa.

*FEMA's Mobile Emergency Response Services (MERS) communications staff and equipment are available to provide telephone, radio and video links in support of response and recovery efforts. About 100 MERS personnel and about 75 vehicles - including Mobile Emergency Operations Center (MEOCs) equipped vehicles and Mobile Radio Vans (MRVs) to provide radio capability have been assigned to support Hurricane Frances response and recovery operations.

Source.

This bit about not signing control of the whole city to the Feds is just a dodge, among many dodges, to try to disguise the clear fact that the Federal response was totaly inadequate.

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timberlandko wrote:

Deja vu all over again ...

At the time I posted that, it was published in the (conservative) papers Tiemes, Telegraph and Scotsman - and still on reuters official photo site.

Since I didn't follow further developments - especially not when sleeping - I missed e.g.

Reuters Says Bush Photo Not 'Malicious,' Reports Wide Interest at Home and Abroad

Sorry.

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Expect all conservatives to circle the wagons and repeat, over and over again, that FEMA and other Federal agencies are only there to assist whatever efforts local and state governments have made. Yet they can produce no documentation that FEMA has to wait for any state official's permission before commencing rescue operations and all the rest.

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Bush supporters' aftermath thread

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