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Bush supporters' aftermath thread

 
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Sep, 2005 10:07 am
Here ya go. http://www.nola.com/newslogs/breakingtp/index.ssf?/mtlogs/nola_Times-Picayune/archives/2005_08.html#074549
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Sep, 2005 10:07 am
Found it, I think:

Quote:
Among the most notable unfulfilled self-imposed responsibilities:

-The mayor was meant to order an evacuation 48 hours before the hurricane landfall, not 24 hours, as he in fact did.

-The New Orleans Regional Transit Authority was meant to "position supervisors and dispatch evacuation buses" to evacuate at least some of the "100,000 citizens of New Orleans [who] do not have means of personal transportation," but it did not; the flood claimed the buses.

-The city was responsible for establishing shelters coordinated with "food and supply distribution sites" which the American Red Cross, the Salvation Army and others were to provision, but the city did not.


http://www.ncpa.org/newdpd/dpdarticle.php?article_id=2219

OK but wait, the flood happened after the evacuation order. :-?
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Sep, 2005 10:12 am
Thanks, FreeDuck!

The buses seemed to be to take people to shelters, not to evacuate:

Quote:
The city has set up ten pickup areas to take people to emergency shelters. RTA buses will be picking up citizens for free and take them to these shelters.
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Sep, 2005 10:20 am
Yeah, I'm still trying to figure out what the big smoking gun is with regard to the buses. Should the city have anticipated that they would get flooded and then not be available to take people from the superdome to somewhere, anywhere else? Didn't they probably think that people would be able to return home or to more permanent shelters after the storm was over? Obviously any bussing of people to shelters would have taken place before the storm, so the fact that the buses got flooded doesn't really mean anything.

But yeah, about taking people to shelters, the Red Cross has this to say:
Quote:
The original plan was to evacuate all the residents of New Orleans to safe places outside the city. With the hurricane bearing down, the city government decided to open a shelter of last resort in the Superdome downtown. We applaud this decision and believe it saved a significant number of lives.


http://www.redcross.org/faq/0,1096,0_682_4524,00.html

I just can't bring myself to condemn the evacuation efforts when the job seems so impossible to begin with. At least 100,000 people with no means to get themselves out have to be gotten out in 30 hours or less. Many of them were elderly and/or sick.
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Sep, 2005 10:23 am
FD, no one is saying FEMA's response was all it could or should have been. Clearly, adjustments can, must, and will be made. Clearly too, some folks feel FEMA's role is that of First Responder, a situatiuon in fact contrary to current law, and a function for which FEMA never was designed, a function for which National Government itself is not designed.

As for your impression of what the documents you mention disclose, nowhere in those documents is there any request for specific Federal manpower or material assistance, beyond post-storm debris removal. All those proclamations do is confirm Louisiana's leadership felt it had things in hand, had budgeted and was ready to accept Federal Disaster Funding to the fullest extent available under law and then some, and that Louisiana was prepared for and expected the Government to shoulder much of the cleanup. Not only did Louisiana's leadership not fulfill its responsibility to ensure the adequate protection and security of its citizens, it is clear that even as the situation worsened from dire to unimaginably calamitous Louisiana's leadership - specifically Governor Blanco - opposed Federal takeover of the response. As late as Tuesday evening, Louisiana's leadership was clear that it was in control, and working diligently to assure all that could be done to shield the State of Louisiana from financial aftermath:

Quote:
Martial law clarified

Tuesday, 9:02 p.m.

The state Attorney General's office on Tuesday sought to clarify reports in some media that "martial law' has been declared in parts of storm-ravaged southeast Louisiana, saying no such term exists in Louisiana law.

But even though no martial law exists, Gov. Kathleen Blanco's declaration of a state of emergency gives authorities widespread latitude to suspend civil liberties as they try to restore order and bring victims to safety. Under the Louisiana Homeland Security and Emergency Assistance and Disaster Act of 1993, the governor and, in some cases, chief parish officials, have the right to commandeer or utilize any private property if necessary to cope with the emergency.

Authorities may also suspend any statute related to the conduct of official business, or any rule issued by a state agency, if complying would "prevent, hinder or delay necessary action'' to mitigate the emergency.

It also gives authority the right to compel evacuations, suspend alcohol and weapons sales and make provisions for the availability and use of temporary emergency housing.

The law gives mayors similar authority, except they do not have the right to commandeer private property or make provisions for emergency housing, according to a background brief prepared by the state Attorney General's office.



What Louisiana's governor officially requested was more money than normally provided under existing Federal Disaster Assistance guidelines:
Quote:
Louisiana pleas for continued federal funding

As they try to assess the damage from Hurricane Katrina, Louisiana officials pleaded with the White House Tuesday to waive federal rules that would push a portion of the cleanup and recovery costs onto the state.

Calling the destruction "well beyond anything that has happened in our history," the state's congressional delegation asked President Bush to authorize the federal government to pick up all of the post-disaster bill.

Normally, the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) pays 75 percent of the costs of debris removal and rescue efforts while state and local governments pay the rest. Frequently, FEMA will pay the whole tab for the first 72 hours.

The delegation asked that FEMA pick up 100 percent of the costs even beyond that, as was done in Florida last year after a series of hurricanes.

The request came as water continued to breach a major levee in New Orleans, pushing flood waters ever higher and prompting Gov. Kathleen Blanco to order an evacuation. New Orleans' water pumping system has collapsed and much of the southeastern part of the city is under water.

"Louisiana sits at a perilous crossroads," the nine-member delegation wrote. "This incident is of such severity and magnitude that effective response is beyond the capabilities of the state. Without your direct intervention, we will not receive this much-needed assistance."

There was no immediate response on the request from the Office of Management and Budget.



Though New Orleans descended through chaos into catastrophe, throughout the rest of the state of Louisiana, the situation was different:
Quote:
Vitter: Hurricane damage "heartbreaking"

Sen. David Vitter, R-La., said that he's satisfied with the federal response to the hurricane, although it might not be as fast as some hard-pressed residents would like.

"We just have horrible conditions to deal with," Vitter said. "For instance, every and route into the city except one is flooded and obviously we are using air assets, but it is tough. They are moving things into the city, diesel fuel, water, ice food etc as fast as they can."



For any disaster to occur, an enabling chain of events and conditions must exist. As is the case with disasters, once triggered, once begun, the failure chain's progress is inexorable. Had conditions or events been other than those which occasioned the beginning of the failure chain, the ultimate calamity would not have occurred. Blanco and crew assured the impact of Katrina would overwhelm the overall capabilities of a system which at its foundation depends upon competent leadership, adequate preparation, and prudent action on the part of state and local governments. Competent leadership, adequate preparation, and prudent action on the part of state and local governments precisely is what did not happen in Louisiana and New Orleans, and that happenstance of failure precisely is the proximate cause of all that ensued.


For a detailed, essentially objective, on-the-scene timeline, from "The Center of The Storm", so to speak, start HERE and read upwards. It pretty well chronicles "What Really Happened", event-by-event, as it happened..





KW - <chuckle> Perhaps I could have been more clear; I was addressing specifically the issue that despite The Opposition's shrell rhetoric, the weight of public opinion does not correspond to a general endorsement of The Opposition's position on the Katrina issue. Just for your entertainment, here's another bit of punlic opinion sampling which indicates most of the public holds a different opinion than do those who seek to lay blame on Bush:

Quote:
ABC News/TCS: Poll: Bush Not Taking Brunt of Katrina Criticism

Hurricane Preparedness Is Faulted; Fewer Blame Bush for Problemsthree-quarters say state and local governments in the affected areas likewise were insufficiently prepared


Seems to me The Opposition once again is firmly resolved of one mind, and once again squarely behind The Minority Opinion.
0 Replies
 
jpinMilwaukee
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Sep, 2005 10:26 am
sozobe wrote:


OK but wait, the flood happened after the evacuation order. :-?


Tha is one of the problems I have had all along. The mayor tells people to go to the Superdome, then after the city is flooded starts telling people busses are coming, knowing full well they are all underwater now. Why didn't he use the busses before?

Then he starts blasting FEMA and the Feds and it seems to me shift blame from himself. Sure the Feds were slow in responding but the Mayors actions in order of them happening just don't make any sense.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Sep, 2005 10:27 am
Okay. What I've learnt now is that the Federal Government (and its agencies) certainly would have helped and (better) responded to the disaster, but unfortunately the law hindered that.

I think, federal, state and local governments need to work together effectively when responding to emergencies: this wasn't a fight for power but for human lives.
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Sep, 2005 10:51 am
timberlandko wrote:
As for your impression of what the documents you mention disclose, nowhere in those documents is there any request for specific Federal manpower or material assistance, beyond post-storm debris removal. All those proclamations do is confirm Louisiana's leadership felt it had things in hand, had budgeted and was ready to accept Federal Disaster Funding to the fullest extent available under law and then some, and that Louisiana was prepared for and expected the Government to shoulder much of the cleanup.


From your nola link:
Quote:
Pursuant to 44 CFR ยง 206.35, I have determined that this incident is of
such severity and magnitude that effective response is beyond the
capabilities of the State and affected local governments, and that
supplementary Federal assistance is necessary to save lives, protect
property, public health, and safety, or to lessen or avert the threat of a
disaster. I am specifically requesting emergency protective measures,

direct Federal Assistance, Individual and Household Program (IHP)
assistance, Special Needs Program assistance, and debris removal.


Quote:
I certify that for this emergency, the State and local governments will
assume all applicable non-Federal share of costs required by the Stafford
Act.

I request Direct Federal assistance for work and services to save lives and
protect property.


I really don't know what else she has to specifically ask for. Isn't saying, "bring FEMA" enough? Does she have to ask for the right number of bottles of water? Specify how many MREs should be supplied and when and where? No, once she says "bring FEMA" and desgnates someone to coordinate with them, it should be done. Obviously the coordination wasn't so hot, but to say that the feds didn't have to help or that they weren't asked in just the right way is assinine. They knew they were needed, they knew what would need to be done, and they said they would do it. Otherwise, why have a FEMA at all? It doesn't matter that state and local authorities are primarily responsible for emergencies because this is clearly not a "primary" example. This was an unusual incident and the acceptance of its exceptionalism is well documented. This is precisely the kind of incident where the feds should step in, as they know and did. They've done better in the past, so why not here? That's the golden question.
0 Replies
 
hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Sep, 2005 10:51 am
looking across the border ...

from our very limited experience and also from speaking to people in the south (mainly in myrtle beach) we think that one of the problems with an appearing hurricane is people's perception of its possible strength. since the southern united states has been hit with numerous hurricanes over the years, many people seem to think that they know better than hurricane forecasters how powerful the upcoming hurricane will be. we have heard quite a few people tell us : "oh, we don't worry much about hurricanes; we ride it out. they've told us many times to evacute and we just hunkered down. in 48 hours it was all over - not much to worry."
on tv-news one quite often sees pictures of the reporters staying in the hurricane areas interviewing people who stayed behind "riding out the storm".
there was actually an interesting report on how people perceive threats of a natural disaster and how they react to it in our sunday paper. the study found that people who have come through a natural disaster relatively unscathed, will often feel that they have nothing to fear - they can ride out "the next one".
it's a bit like living through a war. after a while one doesn't feel personally threatend very much because "life has to go on".
it's probably a human survival mechanism - and probably a good one . while what has happened in NO - and what happens in other disasters and wars - is absolutely horrible; still the human survival instinct will drive on the human race ... at least for the time being. hbg
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Sep, 2005 11:03 am
Good point, hamburger.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Sep, 2005 11:23 am
I believe Hamburger's observations are correct. I've lived on the Gulf coasts of Florida and Texas and experienced several hurricanes first hand.

Our ability to accurately predict the track of these storms is very limited - about 24 hours max.

Small variations in the landfall position of the hurricane can yield very large variations in its effects. Owing to the counterclockwisae circulation, areas to the right of the track get a huge storm surge and maximum winds equal to the sum of the speed of advance and the circulating wind: areas to the left get very small storm surges and max winds equal to the difference between the speed of advance and the circulating flow.

The wind force is proportional to the square of its velocity - the 15% difference in wind speed to the left and right of the eye means a 32+% difference in the destructive force applied -- over a rather small distance.

The speed of advance of the storm determines the quantity of rainfall deposited. Katrina moved slowly and deposited huge quantities of rain on a watershed not able to absorb it.

Surviving hurricanes unscathed does indeed create an illusion of invincibility - given the variability of these storms many people will prefer to take their chances rather than face the certain risks and inconveniences of evacuation.
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Sep, 2005 11:30 am
http://www.daybydaycartoon.com/Cartoons/09-07-2005.gif
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Ethel2
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Sep, 2005 11:33 am
what do we have here?.........oh, I see. More of the same. Oh dear.
0 Replies
 
BumbleBeeBoogie
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Sep, 2005 11:43 am
Lola
Lola wrote:
what do we have here?.........oh, I see. More of the same. Oh dear.


Some things never change.

BBB
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Sep, 2005 11:46 am
That's right ... nothing to see here ... keep moving.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Sep, 2005 12:05 pm
I heard on the radio this morning--have not checked the information from any other source--that the City of New Orleans had 2000 busses averaging 48 seats each at their disposal. Now figuring 50% of the people would have their own transportation to get out of town, that would leave something under 200000 people to move. 48 x 2000 = 96,000 or roughly two round trips per bus could have taken everybody to safety.

The logistics of getting to the sick, hospitalized, the elderly, the handicapped, the trapped, etc. onto busses would have certainly magnified the problem, but it seems obvious that had the Louisiana Homeland Security emergency plan been implemented, the cost in life, injury, and misery could have been greatly lessened. Also the rescue workers would have needed far less time to get to the much fewer people who didn't make it to the busses.

Hindsight is always 20-20. The next time a similar situation will be handled differently by everybody. This was an unprecedented event.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Sep, 2005 12:25 pm
timberlandko wrote:
So lets see here - 87% don't blame Bush, 82% don't blame Federal agencies, and 63% don't believe anyone responsible for the Federal effort should be fired.


http://img302.imageshack.us/img302/7555/clipboard13uv.jpg

CBS Poll: Blame All Around
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Sep, 2005 12:44 pm
Again it's all in how the questions are asked.

Sept. 4 ABC poll:
LINK
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Sep, 2005 12:49 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
Again it's all in how the questions are asked.


Correct, these CBS questions were right on the point.

Again a proof there that the American people are not always maniupulated by the best efforts of the media spin meisters.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Sep, 2005 12:51 pm
An instructive interview: Britt Hume with Major Garrett:

Looking for Answers in the Hurricane's AftermathSOURCE
0 Replies
 
 

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