0
   

Bush supporters' aftermath thread

 
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Sep, 2005 08:36 am
Sometimes a poll is the only 'proof' there is that the American people are not always maniupulated by the best efforts of the media spin meisters. Those who don't believe the poll will usually ignore it a page or two later in the thread, but at least temporarily, a poll can help give some perspective. As always, it depends on who is taking the poll and whether the questions are framed to get a particular response that is more narrowly defined than the greater picture.

For instance a question:
A 'yes' to "Could FEMA have improved their performance in this disaster?" and
a "yes' to "Was FEMA inadequate or incompetent in this disaster?" can be given equal weight when the story is reported in the newspaper or on TV.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Sep, 2005 08:48 am
Ah, Foxfyre, so you changed your opinion about now Laughing

(I just wanted to copy/paste your previously written opposite posts.)
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Sep, 2005 08:55 am
Changed opinion about what, Walter? (I have an appoinment shortly so probably won't be back for awhile.)
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Sep, 2005 09:00 am
Well, about polls and their significance.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Sep, 2005 09:10 am
Quote:
New Yorker
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Sep, 2005 09:12 am
And what do you do when reality gets nasty-looking? You sure as hell don't let citizens see it...
Quote:

Journalist Groups Protest FEMA Ban on Photos of Dead
By E&P Staff
Published: September 07, 2005 12:06 PM ET updated 6:00 PM ET

NEW YORK Forced to defend what some critics consider its slow response to the devastation caused by Hurricane Katrina, the Federal Emergency Management Agency said on Tuesday it does not want the news media to take photographs of the dead as they are recovered from New Orleans.

FEMA, which is leading the rescue efforts, rejected requests from journalists to accompany rescue boats as they went out to search for storm victims, Reuters reported.

A FEMA spokeswoman told the wire service that space was needed on the rescue boats and assured Reuters that "the recovery of the victims is being treated with dignity and the utmost respect."

"We have requested that no photographs of the deceased be made by the media," the spokeswoman told Reuters via e-mail.

On Wednesday, journalist groups protested the move.

"It's impossible for me to imagine how you report a story whose subject is death without allowing the public to see images of the subject of the story," Larry Siems of the PEN American Center told Reuters.

Rebecca Daugherty of the Reporters Committee for Freedom of the Press said: "The notion that, when there's very little information from FEMA, that they would even spend the time to be concerned about whether the reporting effort is up to its standards of taste is simply mind-boggling. You cannot report on the disaster and give the public a realistic idea of how horrible it is if you don't see that there are bodies as well."

FEMA's policy of excluding media from recovery expeditions in New Orleans is "an invitation to chaos," Tom Rosenstiel, director of the Project for Excellence in Journalism, a part of Columbia University's journalism school, told Reuters.

"This is about managing images and not public taste or human dignity," Rosenstiel said. He said FEMA's refusal to take journalists along on recovery missions meant that media workers would go on their own.

Rosenstiel also noted that U.S. media, especially U.S. television outlets, are generally reluctant to show corpses.

"By and large, American television is the most sanitized television in the world," he said. "They are less likely to show bodies, they are less likely to show graphic images of the dead than any television in the world."...
Editor and Publisher
0 Replies
 
jpinMilwaukee
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Sep, 2005 09:16 am
FreeDuck wrote:
I'm mostly in agreement with Finn. I don't quite share the hostility against the mayor, but that's because I think he had the least resources of the three governments and the least ability to coordinate with the feds. I found an interesting time line yesterday. here

It paints the most comlete picture so far. What really stands out is the poor cooperation and communication between agencies. I think we have uncovered yet another shining example of how terrible we are at sharing.


Thanks for that link FD. It is nice to see everything in a nice timeline like that. One of the things that I don't really understand is this:

Quote:
Nagin said late Saturday that he's having his legal staff look into whether he can order a mandatory evacuation of the city, a step he's been hesitant to do because of potential liability on the part of the city for closing hotels and other businesses.


He is worried about liability for closing hotels????

That right there says a lot about where his priorities/responsibilities were. He placed the possibility of liability ahead of peoples lives and well being.

Later on that night a National Hurrican Center official says "The bottom line is this is a worst-case scenario and everybody needs to recognize it."

Instead of taking it seriously, the Mayor waits until Sunday to order a mandaoty evacuation.

But it is to late. He had already told people to take shelter in the superdome. 26000 people show up all needing shelter, food and water.

Quote:
The Mayor's office announces at 9:30 AM that RTA (Regional Transit Authority) busses will pick people up at 12 locations throughout the city and take them to shelters - including the Superdome. This is in accordance with both the Comprehensive Emergency Management Plan for the city of New Orleans and The State of Louisiana Emergency Operations Plan Supplement 1B which clearly states that people who cannot be evacuated will be taken to "last resort" shelters such as the Superdome.


Notice the shelter is to be used as a last resort, but the mayor told people to head there before he gave an evacuation order. It just seems to me that had he tried to evacuate some of these people earlier that a lot of them could have been gone before the hurricane hit.

This thing was a debacle all the way around. From beginning to end this thing was botched.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Sep, 2005 09:16 am
Quote:
Yet the underlying racial dynamic of party politics hasn't changed at all under Mehlman's boss. Though he appointed the first and the second African-American secretaries of state, Bush seldom appears before black audiences. Beyond his interest in education, he has little to say about issues of social and urban policy. Bush has never articulated an approach, other than faith-based platitudes and tax cuts, to bettering the lives of African-Americans. And indeed, has not bettered them. The percentage of blacks living in poverty, which diminished from 33 percent to less than 23 percent during the Clinton years, has been rising again under Bush. In 2000, Bush got 8 percent of the black vote. In 2004, he got 11 percent. Because African-Americans constitute only 12 percent of the population, it's possible for Republicans to neglect them and still win elections. Indeed, as Mehlman indicated, neglecting them has often helped Republicans win.
Because they don't see blacks as a current or potential constituency, Bush and his fellow Republicans do not respond out of the instinct of self-interest when dealing with their concerns. Helping low-income blacks is a matter of charity to them, not necessity. The condescension in their attitude intensifies when it comes to New Orleans, which is 67 percent black and largely irrelevant to GOP political ambitions. Cities with large African-American population that happen to be in important swing states may command some of Karl Rove's respect as election time approaches. But Louisiana is small (9 electoral votes) and not much of a swinger these days. In 2004, Bush carried it by a 57-42 margin. If Bush and Rove didn't experience the spontaneous political reflex to help New Orleans, it may be because they don't think of New Orleans as a place that helps them
http://www.slate.com/?id=2125812&nav=tap2/
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Sep, 2005 09:26 am
Excerpt from the OpinionJournal:

Quote:
Many in the media are turning their eyes toward the federal government, rather than considering the culpability of city and state officials. I am fully aware of the challenges of having a quick and responsive emergency response to a major disaster. And there is definitely a time for accountability; but what isn't fair is to dump on the federal officials and avoid those most responsible--local and state officials who failed to do their job as the first responders. The plain fact is, lives were needlessly lost in New Orleans due to the failure of Louisiana's governor, Kathleen Blanco, and the city's mayor, Ray Nagin.

The primary responsibility for dealing with emergencies does not belong to the federal government. It belongs to local and state officials who are charged by law with the management of the crucial first response to disasters. First response should be carried out by local and state emergency personnel under the supervision of the state governor and his emergency operations center.

The actions and inactions of Gov. Blanco and Mayor Nagin are a national disgrace due to their failure to implement the previously established evacuation plans of the state and city. Gov. Blanco and Mayor Nagin cannot claim that they were surprised by the extent of the damage and the need to evacuate so many people. Detailed written plans were already in place to evacuate more than a million people. The plans projected that 300,000 people would need transportation in the event of a hurricane like Katrina. If the plans had been implemented, thousands of lives would likely have been saved
.


SOURCE
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Sep, 2005 09:26 am
Quote:
"But perhaps the greatest disappointment stands at the breached 17th Street levee. Touring this critical site yesterday with the President, I saw what I believed to be a real and significant effort to get a handle on a major cause of this catastrophe. Flying over this critical spot again this morning, less than 24 hours later, it became apparent that yesterday we witnessed a hastily prepared stage set for a Presidential photo opportunity; and the desperately needed resources we saw were this morning reduced to a single, lonely piece of equipment. The good and decent people of southeast Louisiana and the Gulf Coast - black and white, rich and poor, young and old - deserve far better from their national government.
http://www.fromtheroots.org/story/2005/9/3/19542/97952

Taken along with the forty firefighters pulled away simply in order to make Bush's photos look...real?... the above bit of fakery really ought to be a bit much even for you guys.
0 Replies
 
jpinMilwaukee
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Sep, 2005 09:29 am
pssst... Tico... I posted that one two pages back.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Sep, 2005 09:29 am
Here's a translation from Der Speigel...perhaps Walter can veryify
http://www.tagesschau.de/video/0,1315,OID4700936_RESreal256_PLYinternal_NAV_BAB,00.html

Quote:
On the last state of things here's Christine Adelhardt live from Biloxi

2 minutes ago the President drove past in his convoi. But what has happened in Biloxi all day long is truly unbelievable. Suddenly recovery units appeared, suddenly bulldozers were there, those hadn't been seen here all the days before, and this in an area, in which it really wouldn't be necessary to do a big clean up, because far and wide nobody lives here anymore, the people are more inland in the city. The President travels with a press baggage [big crew]. This press baggage got very beautiful pictures which are supposed to say, that the President was here and help is on the way, too. The extent of the natural disaster shocked me, but the extent of the staging is shocking me at least the same way. With that back to Hamburg.[/[/size]QUOTE]
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Sep, 2005 09:39 am
Quote:
Blaming Katrina on Gays, Israel, and Man-on-Horse Sex (128 comments )

I've been stunned at how long it took a prominent member of the Christian right to blame the destruction wrought by Hurricane Katrina on America's cultural decadence and immorality. Finally, Rick Scarborough of Vision America and the Judeo-Christian Council for Constitutional Restoration has stepped up to the plate, blaming Katrina on gay marriage, man-on-horse sex, and Israel for evacuating a portion of the Messiah's planned landing strip. He did so Volume 1, Number 24 (definitely not to be confused with a Bible verse) of his weekly email newsletter, the Scarborough Report, which you can subscribe to here. (Since you can't view Scarborough's latest newsletter online right now, I'm going to excerpt his statement at length.)

Scarborough declared:


After September 11, 2001, "God bless America" was on everyone's lips. But what, exactly, are we asking God to bless - a nation moving a breakneck speed toward homosexual marriage, a nation awash in pornography, a nation in which our children are indoctrinated in perversion in the public schools, a nation in which most public displays of The Ten Commandments are considered offensive to the Constitution, a nation in which the elite does all in its considerable power to efface our Biblical heritage?

We are sowing the wind. Surely, we shall reap the whirlwind.

One other factor which must be considered: Days before Katrina nearly wiped New Orleans off the map, 9,000 Jewish residents of Gaza were driven from their homes with the full support of the United States government. Could this be a playing out of prophesy ("I will bless that nation that blesses you, and curse the nation that curses you")?

Please read on. I want to give you two examples - from today's headlines - of how we are bringing disaster on ourselves. And then tell you what you can do - right now, today - to begin to reverse the process.

So what were Scarborough's examples of "how we are bringing disaster on ourselves?" First, he cited California's AB 849, a bill changing the definition of marriage in that state from "a man and a woman" to "two persons." Scarborough's second example was even weirder, and more reflective of the Christian right's curious focus on, shall we say, unorthodox sex acts. Check out what he wrote:

In Washington State, a man recently died from internal injuries sustained from committing bestiality with a horse. The incident led police to raid a farm where people were going to have sex with animals.

Though they discovered hundreds of explicit videotapes, apparently, nothing can be done about it. Washington is one of only a handful of states that does not have a law against bestiality....

Is Scarborough suggesting something even more sinister than we know about FEMA head Michael Brown's days at the International Arabian Horse Association? Could Brown have somehow planned Katrina to distract from possible future revelations of horse buggering? And will Katrina now head north and east, towards Russia, where God will exact revenge for the death of Catherine the Great? Or could Scarborough be deadly serious in blaming a bunch of stallion shaggers in rural Washington for flooding New Orleans? Sometime a horse is just a horse, of course.

In case you're wondering if this Scarborough guy is just some isolated Fred Phelps wannabe with no constituency other than the inbred children he whooped into total submission with an axe handle, take a look at the list of confirmed speakers for his Countering the War on Faith Conference, which is scheduled for October 17-18 in Washington DC. They include likely 2008 presidential candidate Senator Sam Brownback, Alan Keyes, Gary Bauer and Phyllis Schlafly. Among invited speakers are David Horowitz, Zell Miller and Judge Roy Moore. The advisory board of Scarborough's Vision America, meanwhile, is comprised of a Who's Who of the Christian right, including heavy-hitters like D. James Kennedy, Jerry Falwell and Tim LaHaye.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/max-blumenthal/blaming-katrina-on-gays-_b_6856.html
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Sep, 2005 09:40 am
blatham wrote:
And what do you do when reality gets nasty-looking? You sure as hell don't let citizens see it...


Is this some fetish of yours that demands to see pictures of the dead? Are you that into gratuitous voyeurism? You think the media needs to photograph pictures of other people's dead, bloated loved ones to display in their newspapers and websites? Do you think the evil Bush Administration is so uncaring you can't imagine they think displaying dead bodies is ... wrong? For what positive purpose should this be done?

Please try and display some common decency.
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Sep, 2005 09:44 am
jpinMilwaukee wrote:
pssst... Tico... I posted that one two pages back.


Thanks, so you did. Can you post a link next time?
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Sep, 2005 09:48 am
Ticomaya wrote:
blatham wrote:
And what do you do when reality gets nasty-looking? You sure as hell don't let citizens see it...


Is this some fetish of yours that demands to see pictures of the dead? Are you that into gratuitous voyeurism? You think the media needs to photograph pictures of other people's dead, bloated loved ones to display in their newspapers and websites? Do you think the evil Bush Administration is so uncaring you can't imagine they think displaying dead bodies is ... wrong? For what positive purpose should this be done?

Please try and display some common decency.


tico

It's a foolish game, and no one buys it any longer. You've been caught up.
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Sep, 2005 09:56 am
jpinMilwaukee wrote:

Thanks for that link FD. It is nice to see everything in a nice timeline like that. One of the things that I don't really understand is this:

Quote:
Nagin said late Saturday that he's having his legal staff look into whether he can order a mandatory evacuation of the city, a step he's been hesitant to do because of potential liability on the part of the city for closing hotels and other businesses.


He is worried about liability for closing hotels????


That one struck me too. The legality should have been settled when the evacuation plan was put in place.

Quote:
Instead of taking it seriously, the Mayor waits until Sunday to order a mandaoty evacuation.


Yeah, he did issue a voluntary evacuation the day before, which kind of makes sense. New Orleans is huge and everyone can't leave at once. Let the ones with means get out first. Mandatory, to me, means everybody goes -- with help from officials if necessary. I understand that the city just didn't have the resources to remove everyone who was left. There were 32,000 in the superdome alone. That's a lot of people. How many people can fit on a bus? How many buses would you need to get them all out in a days time? If they have to drive all the way outside of the city, how many trips can they make? Timber linked to an article earlier which explained that the city already knew it didn't have enough buses to get everyone out.

Quote:
But it is to late. He had already told people to take shelter in the superdome. 26000 people show up all needing shelter, food and water.


According to the Red Cross faq, this was done because the city recognized it couldn't get everyone out, and this was the next best thing.

Quote:
This thing was a debacle all the way around. From beginning to end this thing was botched.


Have to kind of agree. One thing that seems to get lost is how immense and nearly impossible the situation was from the beginning. They had a plan in place, it was pretty closely followed, but it just wasn't enough.
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Sep, 2005 10:01 am
blatham wrote:
Ticomaya wrote:
blatham wrote:
And what do you do when reality gets nasty-looking? You sure as hell don't let citizens see it...


Is this some fetish of yours that demands to see pictures of the dead? Are you that into gratuitous voyeurism? You think the media needs to photograph pictures of other people's dead, bloated loved ones to display in their newspapers and websites? Do you think the evil Bush Administration is so uncaring you can't imagine they think displaying dead bodies is ... wrong? For what positive purpose should this be done?

Please try and display some common decency.


tico

It's a foolish game, and no one buys it any longer. You've been caught up.


Hey, I'm not the one demanding to see pictures of dead, burnt, bloated bodies in the newspaper ... you are. You implicate Bush as having some sort of wrongdoing in this regard - and apparently feel the need to post your random thoughts in the "Bush Supporters" thread - and all I'm asking you to provide some basis for your line of thought. Care to do so? Or are you just cutting and pasting from your favorite sources?
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Sep, 2005 10:04 am
I'm sure this is around somewhere, but a quick search isn't turning it up, so if I may ask here:

I was talking to a friend yesterday and she said she saw on the news, before the hurricane hit, fleets of buses ready to take out evacuees, but nobody would get on them. This sounds highly suspect to me (she also said that when the floodwaters were rising after the hurricane, Nagin still refused to open the Superdome, and when I reminded her that people were in the Superdome during the hurricane -- remember the roof being damaged, water dripping on people? -- she backtracked) but I don't know one way or another.

So, was there an organized effort to evacuate people on buses before the hurricane hit, and people just refused to get on the buses?
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Sep, 2005 10:05 am
From what I've read, there was an organized effort to get people on buses, but because there were so many, and the city knew they couldn't get them all the way out of town, they took them to the superdome. That was on the really long timeline I linked to, but it's probably also sourced there so I'll go find it.
0 Replies
 
 

Related Topics

Obama '08? - Discussion by sozobe
Let's get rid of the Electoral College - Discussion by Robert Gentel
McCain's VP: - Discussion by Cycloptichorn
The 2008 Democrat Convention - Discussion by Lash
McCain is blowing his election chances. - Discussion by McGentrix
Snowdon is a dummy - Discussion by cicerone imposter
Food Stamp Turkeys - Discussion by H2O MAN
TEA PARTY TO AMERICA: NOW WHAT?! - Discussion by farmerman
 
Copyright © 2025 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.05 seconds on 07/18/2025 at 05:30:28