0
   

Bush supporters' aftermath thread

 
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Sep, 2005 05:14 pm
That's why I said earlier that if Bush had gone in against the governor's wishes, he would have been blamed for every screw up and every injury and every death that wouldn't have happened if the big bully had just allowed her to do her job.
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Sep, 2005 05:14 pm
Well, the Administration is going to run its own Inquiry, so we'll get to the bottom of this soon enough. Rolling Eyes
0 Replies
 
BumbleBeeBoogie
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Sep, 2005 05:15 pm
Lash
Lash wrote:
You've already complained about law enforcement carrying guns in NO, haven't you? Pissed about looters being arrested, weren't you?

They would have criticised him for it.

"They need food and Bush sent the military..."


No I didn't. Shame for making up things I never said. You're getting desparate.

BBB
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Sep, 2005 05:19 pm
I'll believe that the first time you make an unqualified post about something George W. Bush did right.
0 Replies
 
chris56789
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Sep, 2005 06:23 pm
For all you Bush lovers:
http://home.kc.rr.com/chasie75/nitwit.jpg
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Sep, 2005 06:27 pm
I can't help it.

That made me laugh.

You look like the Asian guy on MadTV.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Sep, 2005 07:02 pm
http://www.drken.net/images/kims.jpg
Bobby Lee. My favorite Asian.
He's in the middle, but they all look alike, don't they?

<heh>
0 Replies
 
chris56789
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Sep, 2005 08:19 pm
Lash wrote:
http://www.drken.net/images/kims.jpg
Bobby Lee. My favorite Asian.
He's in the middle, but they all look alike, don't they?

<heh>

Bobby Lee looks exactly like my brother. And he is my fav asian, too.
0 Replies
 
pragmatic
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Sep, 2005 09:56 pm
I can't say that I am a Bush supporter (especially not at the moment because of his stance towards Taiwan and China) but realistically, in times like this regarding the hurricane disaster (which is what presume your are talking about) where emergency measures are highly required, a leader is needed - no matter how bad or pathetic they may be. A leader will give some sort of confidence and idea to the country rather than have it running in anarchy and uncertainty about who to follow. Bush may be a bad leader, but he is the confirmed and determined president - there is assured certainty.

In regards to his policy to shoot anyone disturbing the rescue effort, I support it, tentatively. I believe that in extreme times, there come extreme measures.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Sep, 2005 10:45 pm
You know I don't know since I've never had to put it to the test, but I'm pretty sure if I was armed and in position to do so, I could shoot somebody who was shooting at a rescue chopper or otherwise doing evil that put people at mortal risk. And I don't think I would lose any sleep over it.

I was listening to a commentary tonight re how modern television and the movies distort people's ideas about what can be done in crisis situations. You see helicopter rescues and amazing things done with apparent ease and effectiveness. The reality, however, is that it isn't as easy as it looks.

Michael Savage is running in the background as I'm working tonight. He has been blasting the President and the relief efforts for days. Tonight, he said he has looked at all the situation, who was responsible for what, the impediments to rescue efforts, etc., and he has changed his mind. He said in his words: "The President is doing a fine job."

I think when all this shakes out, that will be the conclusion of everyone with ability to be fair and honest about this.
0 Replies
 
kelticwizard
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Sep, 2005 11:49 pm
Foxfyre wrote:

Michael Savage is running in the background as I'm working tonight. He has been blasting the President and the relief efforts for days. Tonight, he said he has looked at all the situation, who was responsible for what, the impediments to rescue efforts, etc., and he has changed his mind. He said in his words: "The President is doing a fine job."


Aw, gee. Michael Savage screams at everyone on his radio show for days, but in the end (surprise!), he decides Bush is good.

Like we couldn't see THAT one coming.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Sep, 2005 01:03 am
I know, it's of no interest, doesn't matter at all and "who cares?", but nevertheless:

Quote:
Most Europeans dislike Bush's foreign policies

By Andrew Grice, Political Editor
Published: 07 September 2005

George Bush's attempt to charm Europe in his second term has failed to make an impact with the people of the continent, a survey shows.

Some 72 per cent of Europeans disapprove of the US President's handling of international policies while more than half (55 per cent) want Europe to adopt a more independent approach from the US on international security and diplomacy - up four points since last year. Conversely, a majority (54 per cent) of the 1,000 Americans surveyed want a closer partnership between the US and Europe.

After winning a second term, Mr Bush sought to heal the wounds left by the Iraq war by making a high-profile visit to the EU in February. But the survey of 9,000 people in nine EU states, including Britain, shows his drive has failed to make Europeans feel warmer towards America.

Despite Tony Blair's much-vaunted special relationship with the President, his offensive has made little impact in the UK.

Only 14 per cent of Britons feel relations between the countries have improved in the past year - along with Spain the lowest rating. Almost twice as many (27 per cent) think relations have got worse, while 56 per cent believe they have stayed the same. "There is still a rift in how we view each other and the world," said Craig Kennedy, the president of German Marshall Fund of the United States, a Washington-based body that tries to foster co-operation between the US and Europe and which commissioned the poll by TNS.

Patrick Diamond, a former Blair aide who is now a fellow of the fund, said an urgent "change of mindset" was needed. "The US should do its utmost to avoid gratuitous unilateralism," he said. "It is counter-productive to undermine existing international instruments like the Geneva Conventions and the International Criminal Court."

But he said Europe had to change, and it had failed to appreciate the profound shock caused in the US by the 9/11 attacks. Telling America to work through its alliances was not enough.

George Bush's attempt to charm Europe in his second term has failed to make an impact with the people of the continent, a survey shows.

Some 72 per cent of Europeans disapprove of the US President's handling of international policies while more than half (55 per cent) want Europe to adopt a more independent approach from the US on international security and diplomacy - up four points since last year. Conversely, a majority (54 per cent) of the 1,000 Americans surveyed want a closer partnership between the US and Europe.

After winning a second term, Mr Bush sought to heal the wounds left by the Iraq war by making a high-profile visit to the EU in February. But the survey of 9,000 people in nine EU states, including Britain, shows his drive has failed to make Europeans feel warmer towards America.

Despite Tony Blair's much-vaunted special relationship with the President, his offensive has made little impact in the UK.

Only 14 per cent of Britons feel relations between the countries have improved in the past year - along with Spain the lowest rating. Almost twice as many (27 per cent) think relations have got worse, while 56 per cent believe they have stayed the same. "There is still a rift in how we view each other and the world," said Craig Kennedy, the president of German Marshall Fund of the United States, a Washington-based body that tries to foster co-operation between the US and Europe and which commissioned the poll by TNS.
Patrick Diamond, a former Blair aide who is now a fellow of the fund, said an urgent "change of mindset" was needed. "The US should do its utmost to avoid gratuitous unilateralism," he said. "It is counter-productive to undermine existing international instruments like the Geneva Conventions and the International Criminal Court."

But he said Europe had to change, and it had failed to appreciate the profound shock caused in the US by the 9/11 attacks. Telling America to work through its alliances was not enough.
Source


Press Release by Transatlantic Trends
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Sep, 2005 01:25 am
revel wrote:
People cando both volunteer and hold our government to account. I am sure many have.

Also surely Homeland security is not restricted by state and local governments. Bush declared a natural disaster and at that point it became a federal responsiblity regardless of what state and local government do or not do.


When someplace is declared a federal disaster area,what that does is allow for federal aid to the affected area,in the terms of mostly financial aid.
The governor MUST ASK for federal aid in the form of NG troops,if they are needed.
Nobody is saying that the federal govt and FEMA didnt foul up.
They did.
BUT,it does seem to me that people are quick to blame Bush while ignoring the state and local officials that screwed up.

Why didnt the mayor of NO follow his own evacuation plan?
Why were 2000 city buses (city and school district) allowed to be destroyed instead of using them to evac people,like their plan calls for?
Why did the gov not ask for federal aid before the storm?

EVERYBODY involved made mistakes,not just the feds.
Dont blame Bush for the mistakes made by the state and local govts.
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Sep, 2005 03:40 am
Quote:
National Hurricane Director had to call Nagin at home Saturday night to plead: "Get people out..."
Sun, Aug. 28, 2005 | BY MARC CAPUTO, DAVID OVALLE AND ERIKA BOLSTAD

National Hurricane Center Director had to call Nagin at home Saturday night to plead: "Get people out of New Orleans."

... "The criticisms of Nagin came from above as well. Numerous officials urged him to evacuate the city, but he worried about the legality of ordering people out when New Orleans has few safe hurricane shelters. Also, National Hurricane Center Director Max Mayfield in Miami called Nagin at home Saturday night and told him: Get people out of New Orleans.



Quote:
Mandatory evacuation ordered for New Orleans
8/28/2005, 10:48 a.m. CTGov. Kathleen Blanco, standing beside the mayor at a news conference, said President Bush called and personally appealed for a mandatory evacuation for the low-lying city, which is prone to flooding ...

... "This is a once in a lifetime event," the mayor said. "The city of New Orleans has never seen a hurricane of this magnitude hit it directly," the mayor said.

He told those who had to move to the Superdome to come with enough food for several days and with blankets. He said it will be a very uncomfortable place and encouraged everybody who could to get out.


Now, its not like the State of Louisiana SHOULD have been caught unprepared:

(Just the relevant bits here - its a 45-page-long .pdf document)
Quote:
STATE OF LOUISIANA
EMERGENCY OPERATIONS PLAN
SUPPLEMENT 1A


SOUTHEAST LOUISIANA
HURRICANE EVACUATION
AND SHELTERING PLAN
REVISED JANUARY 2000

PART I: GENERAL
A. SUMMARY:

The Southeast Louisiana Hurricane Evacuation and Sheltering Plan is
intended to provide a framework within which the parishes can coordinate
their actions with State government in order to deal with a catastrophic
hurricane.
A catastrophic hurricane is defined as a hurricane in Category 3 Slow (5 mph
or less forward speed), and categories 4 or 5 on the Saffir-Simpson Scale of
hurricane strength (See Annex A). Hurricanes in Category 1, 2 and 3 Fast,
are considered less destructive and can be met through the use of normal
emergency preparedness procedures on the part of the Parish and State
governments.
The overall strategy for dealing with a catastrophic hurricane is to evacuate as
much of the at risk population as possible from the path of the storm and
relocate them to a place of relative safety outside the projected high water
mark of the storm surge flooding and hurricane force winds ...

... B. PURPOSE
It is the intent of this plan to establish guidelines for the direction, control and
coordination of evacuation of the Southeast Louisiana Region in order to
protect life and property ...

... Organization and Assignment of Responsibilities
The organization and assignment of primary and secondary responsibilities
are detailed in the State Emergency Operations Plan (EOP). Listed below are
the key participants and their roles in the event of a catastrophic hurricane:
1. Governor:
a. Proclaim a State of Emergency.
b. Issue supplementary declarations and orders, as the situation
requires.
c. Authorize and direct the use of State government personnel and
other resources to deal with the emergency.
d. Authorize and direct the authorities of non-risk parishes to
coordinate the opening and operation of shelters with DSS in
conjunction with ARC, and to lend all possible assistance to the
evacuation and shelter effort.
e. Request Federal government assistance as needed.

... PART II: SITUATIONS AND ASSUMPTIONS
A. SITUATIONS[/b]
1. The Greater New Orleans Metropolitan Area represents a difficult
evacuation problem due to the large population and it's unique layout ...
... 8. Many of the Region's emergency shelter facilities may be inundated by
floodwaters when threatened by a slow moving Category 3 or above
hurricane. Sheltering of evacuees outside of the Region becomes
necessary.
9. In most emergencies the number of persons needing public shelter will
be limited. In the event of a catastrophic hurricane, however, the
evacuation of over a million people from the Southeast Region could
overwhelm normally available shelter resources ...

B. ASSUMPTIONS

5. The primary means of hurricane evacuation will be personal vehicles.
School and municipal buses, government-owned vehicles and vehicles
provided by volunteer agencies may be used to provide transportation
for individuals who lack transportation and require assistance in
evacuating ...
... 12. Risk area parishes will not normally open shelters for a catastrophic
hurricane, with certain exceptions. Officials will direct residents to
evacuate out of the way of the storm surge. Public shelter located
outside risk areas will be needed for large numbers of evacuees.
13. Last resort refuges, will be required for those individuals who do not
evacuate the risk areas.
14. Hospitals, nursing homes, group homes, etc. will have pre-determined
evacuation and/or refuge plans if evacuation becomes necessary. All
facilities will have approved Multi-Hazard Emergency Operations Plans
as mandated by the State of Louisiana, Dept. of Health and Hospitals
(DHH). Before operating permits are given to homes/hospitals,
emergency precautions are to be taken, such as the placement of
emergency supplies and equipment (i.e., generators and potable water)
on upper floors ...

... PART III: EVACUATION
A. PROCEDURES[/b]
The procedures outlined here are the minimum actions that will be required
from State, parish and municipal authorities in a hurricane emergency ...

... 7. Local transportation resources should be marshaled and
public transportation plans implemented as needed.
8. Announce the location of staging areas for people who need
transportation. Public transportation will concentrate on
moving people from the staging areas to safety in host
parishes with priority given to people with special needs.

B. CONCEPT OF OPERATIONS:
The Regional Evacuation Plan has three phases: Precautionary,
Recommended and Mandatory. Each phase requires specific actions to be
taken at about the same time by all the organizations that are operating
under this plan. The cycle of Decision, Implementation and Information
Feedback is critical to the operation of this plan ...

3. Mandatory Evacuation:
a. Risk Area Parishes:
1. Coordinate evacuation orders with State and other risk
parishes.
2. Instruct persons living in designated evacuation zones to
leave.
3. Impose traffic control to funnel persons to designated
evacuation routes.
4. Designate staging areas and other facilities as last resort
refuges. People at these locations who cannot be
evacuated in time to avoid the storm will remain and take
refuge in the designated buildings.
5. Assist persons with mobility limitations to find last resort
refuge. Mobilize all transportation resources and request
assistance from the state as needed.
6. Continue to update EAS and news media with evacuation
information at two-hour intervals.

... PART V: SHELTER OPERATIONS
A. Concept of Operations:
1. The Department of Social Services (DSS) is the Department of State
Government responsible for the coordination of shelter operations. DSS
will provide administrative support, as required and coordinated, to
Local general population shelters and special needs shelters. DSS has
the added responsibility of managing the State Regional Special Needs
shelters, with assistance from DHH, LANG, DOC, and other state and
voluntary agencies. DHH has the primary responsibility for providing
medical coordination for all special needs populations, i.e., hospital and
nursing home patients, persons on home health care, elderly persons
and other persons with physical or mental disabilities. The Department
of Public Safety and Corrections (DPS&C) has the primary
responsibility for the sheltering of jail and prison inmates from the risk area ...

... e. DSS and DHH will coordinate the special needs shelter program
throughout the State. Nursing homes and other special care
facilities will be monitored, as well as, special needs persons in the
population at large. Plans will be required for evacuation and
sheltering of all such persons. Nursing homes will be required to
have mutual aid agreements with facilities located within host
area parishes. DHH will coordinate the provision of additional
shelters for people not covered by mutual aid agreements.
f. DSS will coordinate the consolidation and closing down of shelters
and restoring facilities to their normal condition.
g. Last resort refuge inside the risk area will be the responsibility of
the local parish government.

PART VI: STAGING AREAS / LAST RESORT REFUGE

A. Staging Areas
The definition of a staging area is a central location, easily accessible to those
ambulatory people who are in need of transportation to a shelter.
1. Residents who have no means of transportation will be directed to the
staging areas.
2. Transportation vehicles will be pre-positioned to transport residents to
shelters ...

... B. Last Resort Refuge
The definition of Last Resort Refuge is a place for persons to be protected from
the high winds and heavy rains from the storm. Unlike a shelter, there may
be little or no water or food and possibly no utilities ... [/b]




Quote:
La. Declares Public Health Emergency
POSTED: 12:50 pm PDT September 3, 2005

Louisiana Gov. Kathleen Blanco has declared a state of public health emergency.

The declaration allows doctors, nurses and other medical professionals to register with the Department of Health and Hospitals and go to work immediately in Louisiana.

The medical professionals must be in good standing in their home states.

Blanco also is asking that school buses be used to help carry supplies and evacuate hurricane victims.

Superintendents in every Louisiana school district that is still up and running have been ordered to send a list of buses and drivers.


A couple thousand school buses, municipal buses, and municipal vehicles weren't available to facilitate Blanco's Sept 3 evacuation order, as shown by these photos of 4 different New Orleans facilities:

Metropolitan Avenue:
http://img399.imageshack.us/img399/5986/naginbuses2metropolitanave8du.jpg

New Orleans Municipal Lot:
http://img399.imageshack.us/img399/9000/naginbuses3munilot9mc.jpg

Dreux Avenue:
http://img399.imageshack.us/img399/2087/naginbusesdreuxave5rv.jpg

New Orleans Unified School District Yard:
http://img399.imageshack.us/img399/989/naginsbusesneworleansunifiedlo.jpg

In July, it seems plans were being made to notify "The Poor of New Orleans" that the buses weren't gonna be runnin':
Quote:
In storm, N.O. wants no one left behind
Number of people without cars makes evacuation difficult

Sunday, July 24, 2005
By Bruce Nolan
Staff writer
City, state and federal emergency officials are preparing to give the poorest of New Orleans' poor a historically blunt message: In the event of a major hurricane, you're on your own.

In scripted appearances being recorded now, officials such as Mayor Ray Nagin, local Red Cross Executive Director Kay Wilkins and City Council President Oliver Thomas drive home the word that the city does not have the resources to move out of harm's way an estimated 134,000 people without transportation ...



A half-dozen questions I'd like to see answered:
1. Why wasn't the evacuation ordered and enforced in a timely manner?
2. Why were there no police at the Superdome or the Convention Center?
3. Why was there no food, water, basic healthcare, or emergency sanitary facilities at the Superdome or Convention Center?
4. Why was no authority granted by Blanco to the on-scene (and almost exclisively Louisiana) National Guard to assist the New Orleans police in maintaining order and public safety in the city?
5. Why did Blanco wait until Wednesday to declare an "emergency" when the levees broke on Tuesday AT NOON, and the city was 80% underwater by Tuesday evenihg?
6. Why did Blanco wait until Thursday to officially ask FEMA to assist?

Oh, and a bonus question - Why is Louisiana, alone among the other states devastated by the storm trying to figure out what went wrong and how to shift the blame while Mississippi and Alabama, for instance, which also lost entire communities, are working on recovering from the disaster, not whining about being left behind?

I have a few dozen more questions, and I'm sure that along with those above, many will be asked when the investigation opens.


Oh, and in the "Deja vu all over again" department:
Quote:
New Orleans will force evacuations
Wednesday, September 7, 2005; Posted: 12:16 a.m. EDT (04:16 GMT)


NEW ORLEANS, Louisiana (CNN) -- New Orleans' mayor ordered law enforcement agencies Tuesday night to remove everyone from the city who is not involved in cleaning up after Hurricane Katrina, whether they want to go or not.

Mayor Ray Nagin instructed all public safety officers "to compel the evacuation of all persons ... regardless of whether such persons are on private property or do not desire to leave," according to a written statement from his office ...

Gotta wonder if he means it THIS time. Well, seing as how at least now General Honore, who uderstands and excercizes leadership and authority is in charge now, mebbe it'll finally happen - more than a week after the disaster, instead of days before the disaster, as Blanco and Nagin should, and could, have done.
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Sep, 2005 03:50 am
It seems a stupid thing to force on people now, some of them very self-reliant people who are reluctant to go. There will be needless shooting, on top of everything else.

Another blunder.
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Sep, 2005 06:07 am
Blanco asked for aid Sunday.

http://gov.louisiana.gov/Disaster%20Relief%20Request.pdf

http://gov.louisiana.gov/2005%20%20proclamations/48pro2005-Emergency-HurricaneKatrina.pdf
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Sep, 2005 06:34 am
Did you read the documents posted, Revel? These are asking for after-the-fact storm clean up and money. Nowhere does it ask the Federal government to take over search, rescue, evacuations, etc. The Federal government had already granted her all that she asked in these documents.

Further she declares a state of emergency--something all governors do in the face of a hurricane--but did not call out the National Guard or request assistance in dealing with immediate threats to human life.

It may be the same case we had with Hurricane Andrew that nobody anticipated how bad it would be. But the fact remains, the President called her the day before the Hurricane asking her to order mandatory evacuations. She didn't do it. The Mayor didn't do it. The Mayor didn't take any measures to help people get out or get to safety.

In Mississippi and Alabama, in many ways suffering much worse devastation than that in New Orleans, are doing their jobs and handling the situation with backup by FEMA. Louisiana didn't do their job, nor did they ask or allow the Federal government to do it for them until the situation was already past critical.

There will certainly be valid criticisms of priorities and administration among Federal agencies in the aftermath of this--you don't have operations of this magnitude without some bungling--but there is no way that any honest person can lay even a lot of the blame for this disaster at the feet of the President.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Sep, 2005 07:25 am
Ticomaya wrote:
What you need to understand, revel, is that disaster relief is primarily a state issue, and this is true no matter how much you feel Bush is primarily to blame for the effects of Katrina. Any federal response is secondary, and in support of local efforts.


"the Republican senator leading a Senate investigation into the government's response to Hurricane Katrina called it "woefully inadequate".

"If our system did such a poor job when there was no enemy, how would the federal, state and local governments have coped with a terrorist attack that provided no advance warning and that was intent on causing as much death and destruction as possible?" said senator Susan Collins, a Maine Republican who will lead the investigation by the Senate Homeland Security Committee."

(Link: Reuters)
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Sep, 2005 07:34 am
Government has numerous level in this country. The 'government' seems to have done very well in Mississippi and Alabama, but they are not getting much press coverage. The entire MSM, including even Fox News, is focused on New Orleans these days. New Orleans is a city of just under a half million people but is one city among the three-state wide swatch the hurricane took.

How many terrorists attacks are likely to take out all coastal cities in a three-state wide swath?
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Sep, 2005 07:52 am
nimh wrote:
Ticomaya wrote:
What you need to understand, revel, is that disaster relief is primarily a state issue, and this is true no matter how much you feel Bush is primarily to blame for the effects of Katrina. Any federal response is secondary, and in support of local efforts.


"the Republican senator leading a Senate investigation into the government's response to Hurricane Katrina called it "woefully inadequate".

"If our system did such a poor job when there was no enemy, how would the federal, state and local governments have coped with a terrorist attack that provided no advance warning and that was intent on causing as much death and destruction as possible?" said senator Susan Collins, a Maine Republican who will lead the investigation by the Senate Homeland Security Committee."

(Link: Reuters)


I'm curious, nimh, why did you include those quotes following the quote of me? Are you suggesting what I said was incorrect?

I don't think anyone is claiming the federal response was perfect, and I think an investigation into "what went wrong," even one conducted by Congress, will be beneficial.

But what's your point?
0 Replies
 
 

Related Topics

Obama '08? - Discussion by sozobe
Let's get rid of the Electoral College - Discussion by Robert Gentel
McCain's VP: - Discussion by Cycloptichorn
The 2008 Democrat Convention - Discussion by Lash
McCain is blowing his election chances. - Discussion by McGentrix
Snowdon is a dummy - Discussion by cicerone imposter
Food Stamp Turkeys - Discussion by H2O MAN
TEA PARTY TO AMERICA: NOW WHAT?! - Discussion by farmerman
 
Copyright © 2025 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.08 seconds on 07/18/2025 at 02:16:51