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Bush supporters' aftermath thread

 
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Jun, 2005 07:39 am
McTag wrote:
blatham wrote:
Quote:
"Americans think they are fighting evil and that you can't play by the rules when you fight an enemy that does not," says Joerg Friedrichs, an expert in international police cooperation at the University of Bremen in Germany. "But in general, Europe, with its history of dealing with domestic terrorism, is convinced that the problem must be tackled using the law, not flouting it."

"We have learned that as a democratic country you must abide by the law," says Alessandro Politi, an analyst at the Cespi institute in Rome. "You cannot think that all means are justified by the end. If you circumvent the law, that is the best possible propaganda you can give to the enemy."
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2005-06-28-europe-terrorwar_x.htm


That's "A Man For All Seasons" again. We stated this 400 years ago, and it's probably a lot older than that. Of course, Bush was never very strong on history.

Minor correction: Bush was reasonably strong on hisory. According to his college transcript (as compared to Kerry's, wherein Kerry's GPA was LOWER!!!), Bush had an 88 in history. Did you, McT, have an 88 in history in an ivy league university?

Kerry's strong point in college (aside from hobnobbing with Biff and Muffy).......French.

Nimh-- So, Australia is a black-free zone soley due to the absence of slavery? That is your assertion? I guess they enslaved the aboriginals... I'll check into that.

Walter--

CIAfactbook. You can check out a myriad of information by country.

Kid you not.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Jun, 2005 07:44 am
Take a look at that beacon of racial harmony, Australia.

Is this what you defend, nimh? Freeduck? No racism, you say?
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Jun, 2005 07:51 am
You are saying that anti-immigration policies are inherently racist? I'm open to that argument, but I wonder where you stand on immigration in this country.

Pour yourself a cup of decaf, Lash. I didn't realize I had signed up to defend Australia, of which I know very little. And when did the topic turn into one about racism?
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Jun, 2005 07:53 am
Lash wrote:
Walter--

CIAfactbook. You can check out a myriad of information by country.

Kid you not.


Okay, I've checked it .... and their constitutions and various related Finnish/Swedish laws.

I couldn't find a single a single hint that
Quote:
The Finns hardly allow dark skinned people in their country, same with Sweden
.


I would be very pleased if you kindly would give me a more specific hint ... ot the direct source.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Jun, 2005 07:55 am
You can find my stance on immigration in any number of places.

I was very pleased that Bush is trying to make it easier for people to immigrate here legally. I'm also very pleased that my country accepts immigrants as freely as we do.

So, you think anti-immigration isn't racist?

I'll bring an eye-opening article. I was amazed at what's going on in Europe--that no one seems to talk about.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Jun, 2005 07:57 am
It seems I am OK with regular coffee, and it also seems you may benefit from a couple of cups.

FreeDuck wrote:
I thought Aboriginees were considered black, or at least brown. Shows what I know. But yeah, no slavery, no racism.

.


YOU made it about racism.

Wake up!!!
LOL!!
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Jun, 2005 07:58 am
May I add that I deeply doubt your claim, Lash?

I've had a quick look at the cases of the European Court of Human Rights and couldn't find anything related to "Finnland/Sweden not allowing dark skinned people".

And I'm deadly sure, someone would have come up this within the more than 50 years existance of this court!
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Jun, 2005 07:59 am
Lash wrote:
So, you think anti-immigration isn't racist?


No, I don't believe I said I did either. I actually agree with you (and Bush, but for different reasons) on immigration.

I think that it depends on the policy, whether it's racist or not. An anti-immigration policy that treats all immigrants equally is not racist. One that allows folks from whiter countries easier immigration than those from brown countries, is. But I can also acknowledge the argument that these kind of restrictions can result from attempts to use economic criteria when deciding who may come, and are then racist in fact but not in intention.
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Jun, 2005 08:00 am
Lash wrote:
It seems I am OK with regular coffee, and it also seems you may benefit from a couple of cups.

FreeDuck wrote:
I thought Aboriginees were considered black, or at least brown. Shows what I know. But yeah, no slavery, no racism.

.


YOU made it about racism.

Wake up!!!
LOL!!


Lash wrote:

We have held ogether a pretty daunting set of goals, and work doggedly toward them. The Finns hardly allow dark skinned people in their country, same with Sweden, if I remember correctly. Australia has at last check 0% black population. How do you like that? I know you're very concerned about racism.


I'm wide awake.
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Jun, 2005 08:06 am
FreeDuck wrote:
I thought Aboriginees were considered black, or at least brown. Shows what I know. But yeah, no slavery, no racism.

Hey, what's all the squawking about private threads I've been hearing? I thought this thread had been opened up to all by it's author a long long time ago.


The "squawking" hasn't been about "private threads" -- it has been my request to keep the postings here on topic. Blatham, et al.'s frequent anti-Bush cut-&-pastes are tantamount to trolling, and I've asked them to stop. I've made it very clear that debate on a particular topic is welcome, but trolling isn't. There are innumerable threads devoted to bashing President Bush and conservatives in general. Why do some feel the need to hijack this thread for that purpose?

It appears blatham intends to ignore my polite requests.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Jun, 2005 08:06 am
There's no calling back a premature Submit.

It WILL post.

That is all.
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Jun, 2005 08:07 am
Thanks for the explanation, Tico. I went back about 10 pages but couldn't figure out what the hubbub was about. Staying out of it now....
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Jun, 2005 08:08 am
A Blond Nation, in a Bind on Immigrants

By Robert G. Kaiser
Washington Post Staff Writer
Saturday, June 11, 2005; Page A12

HELSINKI -- Finland is Europe's most homogenous society, a nation of mostly blond ethnic Finns whose declining birthrate creates the classic 21st-century European dilemma: a fast-growing population of senior citizens whose promised benefits under a generous welfare state will soon be unaffordable.

To compensate for fewer Finnish births, the country could encourage foreigners to immigrate, a subject much discussed here. But like most of Europe, "Finland is allergic to immigration," in the words of Manuel Castells, the renowned Spanish-born sociologist who lives in the United States.


Children marked the end of the educational year last week at Arabia comprehensive school in Helsinki. The school was created for children of immigrant origin, which in Finland would include Russians and Swedes. (By Lucian Perkins -- The Washington Post)

Finland Diary

Robert G. Kaiser and Lucian Perkins toured Finland for Three weeks to explore why this rarely-noticed little country has the world's best education system, produces such talented musicians and architects and has more cell phones per capita than Japan or the United States.

Castells, a professor at the University of Southern California and a student of Finland since the mid-1990s, chided Finns at a seminar in Helsinki last week. "Either you make more babies," he told them, "or you make immigrants."

But that is easier said than done, as Castells quickly acknowledged. Finnish women, enjoying careers and other fruits of the relative gender equality here, "are on strike," he said, when it comes to bearing children in large numbers. As a result, Finland is "a small country with an endangered culture."

Altogether, immigrants constitute barely 2 percent of Finland's population of 5.2 million. There were 108,346 foreign-born residents at the end of 2004, according to government statistics. Of those, fewer than 25,000 were born in non-white countries whose residents would look conspicuous on the streets of Helsinki. Russians, Estonians and Swedes together represent more than 46,000 people.

The 4,700 Somali refugees in the country, by far the largest group of black people, get more attention in the local news media than all the other immigrants combined, according to Finns. The country continues to accept political asylum seekers -- it is now taking in a group of Montagnard hill people who fled Vietnam.

In principle, Finns often support the idea of immigration. In an interview, Eero Huovinen, the Lutheran bishop of Helsinki (Lutheranism is Finland's official religion), noted that the state had "been very careful, sometimes too much so," about immigration. But he added, "For human, moral and practical reasons, I think we have to take more people, people who are willing to work here."

Finland is the only major European country that has generated no far-right, anti-immigrant political party. Some Finns suggest that may be because their egalitarian Lutheran values simply won't tolerate an open appeal to racist sentiments, though they admit that such feelings exist.

Yet Finnish laws and regulations discourage immigration -- as do the difficulties of the Finnish language and the long, dark winters here. Nokia, often referred to as a "miracle" by Finns because it has become one of the world's high-tech success stories and a rich global company, has attracted an international workforce to fill some key positions, but in this and many other respects, it is a unique Finnish institution.

Finns don't really want to think about the fact that more immigration is going to be needed, said Jalsoon Ally, 28, an ethnic Pakistani who grew up in southern Africa and graduated from Smith College in Northampton, Mass. Ally is engaged to a Finn and is completing a graduate degree in international relations at Helsinki University. "I get the feeling that quite a lot of dallying is going on," she said. "And not much frank conversation. It's a kind of conscious blindness."

Ally has lived here for years, and speaks perfect Finnish, according to her Finnish friends. Because she has been living with her boyfriend for more than two years, she's "legally a spouse," she said. This has given her unusual access to Finnish life, and she is an attentive observer.

Finns will "most likely switch to English" when they meet her, Ally said, and are "always surprised" to learn she speaks Finnish well. Some of her Finnish friends were born here to immigrant parents, she said, and they share her frustration at that kind of response. "There's this very clear idea that if you look different, you can't be Finnish," she said, adding that these Finnish natives were often asked, "Where are you really from?"

Another immigrant with an interesting perspective on diversity in Finland is Ajay Meswani, a schoolteacher. The son of an American mother and an Indian father, he grew up in Philadelphia. He met his Finnish wife at a Danish teachers college where both were students, and they now have a son and a daughter born in Finland. Meswani has many kind things to say about the country, particularly its education system and social services. But he also makes clear that life can be hard here for someone who looks like him.

"There are so few immigrants in Finland, people aren't used to having foreigners around," he said in an interview. The consequences can be complicated. He regularly suffers what Americans would consider snubs, but he knows enough about the reticent, chilly Finnish personality to realize that at least some of these incidents can be entirely innocent.

When he started teaching art at a Helsinki primary school, he said, "I was completely put off by people's total lack of interest in me." On the first day, he walked into the teachers' room, where his new colleagues were carrying on a conversation. "No one stopped, my presence wasn't even acknowledged," he said. "It really made me angry. It was hard not to think it was deliberate -- but it really wasn't." This, he said, is the way Finns treat each other.

Whatever the motivation, the effect on Meswani is wearing. The only real friends he has here, he said, are friends of his wife, Riita. "The hardest thing for me is when I make an effort to greet someone and I get either a blank stare or a scowl. It has happened many times. It's very strange."

Finland is not monocultural. It was part of Sweden for centuries, and from 1809 to 1917, it was part of Russia. Both cultures left populations in Finland that have helped shaped the country's national identity. The Swedish minority, about 6 percent of the population, enjoys special protections, and Swedish remains the official second language. There is a long-standing Roma, or Gypsy, population, as well as an indigenous people in Lapland, in the far north, who call themselves Sami.

But in its 88-year history as an independent country, Finland has become remarkably homogenous. Many Finns believe this has helped the country repeatedly undertake substantial reforms that have altered life here in ways many other societies would have resisted. The Finns have done it, moreover, on the basis of a broad political consensus that still largely holds.

Guided by a widely accepted elite, Finland transformed itself from a backward rural nation into an industrial force in the 30 years after World War II, then remade itself again into a rich, high-tech powerhouse in the last 30 years. Finland is rated the least corrupt nation in the world by Transparency International, a Berlin-based international research group.

Castells, the sociologist, calls Finland's government "the most legitimate government in Europe," meaning it enjoys the highest degree of acceptance and deference from its people. That is one of the reasons, Finns say, that immigration is such a delicate issue. Opposition to it is widespread, by many accounts, but also muted.

"There are a lot of prejudices, unfortunately," against foreigners, said Risto Siilasmaa, 39, a software entrepreneur who runs an Internet security company. "We still live in a very isolated environment. That's going to take decades to change."

A Web site sponsored by the Finnish Ministry for Foreign Affairs ( http://www.virtual.finland.fi/ ) features an article on foreigners in Finland that includes the comment: "Negative attitudes and xenophobia among the main population towards foreigners are still present."

Ordinary people don't understand assertions by intellectuals and members of Finland's elite that immigration is necessary, "when we have 10 percent unemployment," said Miapetra Kumpula, a 33-year-old Social Democratic member of the Finnish Parliament. Officials say the unemployed tend to be aging workers who lack the skills for the new information-based jobs the country is creating.

Ten percent is the overall unemployment figure. But a government report this spring noted that unemployment among ethnic Finns was 9 percent, compared with 29 percent among immigrants. "A lot of highly trained immigrants have had to take menial jobs," if they could gets jobs at all.

------------
Is it OK for the Finns and Australia, but not the US? Our country has bitten off a tall order, and considering the intense difficulty, we've been pretty siccesful. Where is the distain for countries that should know better--who are practicing open racism?
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Jun, 2005 08:12 am
Lacking any substantive argument, Libruls are confronted with but two possible attitudes if they are to participate in political disscussions; they can acknowledge reality and repudiate their own positions, or they can troll.

God, I love the sight of Libruls whining on the internet - it reads like ... like VICTORY! (apologies to Robert Duval)
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Jun, 2005 08:15 am
Lash wrote:

Freeduck--

The quote by me below opened the issue of racism between me and someone else. It was a personal comment. You made the equation that no slavery = no racism, which is ...something I know you won't try to support.
------------
What I said:

We have held ogether a pretty daunting set of goals, and work doggedly toward them. The Finns hardly allow dark skinned people in their country, same with Sweden, if I remember correctly. Australia has at last check 0% black population. How do you like that? I know **you're** very concerned about racism.
-----------
I wasn't speaking to you when I said "you're".
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Jun, 2005 08:17 am
So we are talking about IMMIGRATION now? And especially of the immigration to Finland? Shocked Sorry, I missed that.

As well as don't understand timber's remark about

Quote:
Lacking any substantive argument
.

But that is obviously reasoned as well in the fact that I totally missed the changing of subject here.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Jun, 2005 08:22 am
Walter Hinteler wrote:
Lash wrote:
Walter--

CIAfactbook. You can check out a myriad of information by country.

Kid you not.


Okay, I've checked it .... and their constitutions and various related Finnish/Swedish laws.

I couldn't find a single a single hint that
Quote:
The Finns hardly allow dark skinned people in their country, same with Sweden
.


I would be very pleased if you kindly would give me a more specific hint ... ot the direct source.


I'd be very interested to know what you THOUGHT we were talking about, Walter. Their country's immigration policy is racist. Their country is about to tank because they seemingly would rather lose their economy than allow outsiders, notably dark-skinned people, to come in an fill employment slots.

Do you support that? Do you need more information?
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Jun, 2005 08:25 am
Lash wrote:
Walter Hinteler wrote:
Lash wrote:
Walter--

CIAfactbook. You can check out a myriad of information by country.

Kid you not.


Okay, I've checked it .... and their constitutions and various related Finnish/Swedish laws.

I couldn't find a single a single hint that
Quote:
The Finns hardly allow dark skinned people in their country, same with Sweden
.


I would be very pleased if you kindly would give me a more specific hint ... ot the direct source.


I'd be very interested to know what you THOUGHT we were talking about, Walter. Their country's immigration policy is racist. Their country is about to tank because they seemingly would rather lose their economy than allow outsiders, notably dark-skinned people, to come in an fill employment slots.

Do you support that? Do you need more information?



Bye.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Jun, 2005 08:28 am
Interesting to see your response when you realize you're wrong.

Look the other way in the face of real government-approved discrimination and pick at the nits of the US.

Instructive.
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Jun, 2005 08:28 am
Lash wrote:
Lash wrote:

Freeduck--

The quote by me below opened the issue of racism between me and someone else. It was a personal comment. You made the equation that no slavery = no racism, which is ...something I know you won't try to support.
------------
What I said:

We have held ogether a pretty daunting set of goals, and work doggedly toward them. The Finns hardly allow dark skinned people in their country, same with Sweden, if I remember correctly. Australia has at last check 0% black population. How do you like that? I know **you're** very concerned about racism.
-----------
I wasn't speaking to you when I said "you're".


Do you have to be speaking to me for me to respond to something like "Finns hardly allow dark skinned people in their country" which your article seems to at least shed doubt on? Even if it was personal, it doesn't seem to have anything to do with anything. Even the first sentence is completely disconnected from the rest. And, if it was personal and not meant for thread viewers... maybe a pm would have been a good idea. At any rate "I" didn't make it about racism.

As for no slavery, no racism -- while it is a rather simplistic statement, I will defend that systematic racism, of the kind we have experienced in the US, is most definitely a biproduct of slavery. You seemed to be saying that having little or no black population equates to racism. That's what I was speaking to. Perhaps I should have said, no slavery, no blacks, but even that would not be entirely accurate. At any rate, what are you driving at with all this?
0 Replies
 
 

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