My wife does not want sex anymore.

I love my wife like my own body and therefore want her to enjoy the pleasures of sex constantly....so I see no disconnect between my wants and appropiate behavior.....in fact I see my desire for a constant stream of sex as biblical.....

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[size=7]I can't WAIT 'til Squinney finds this thread![/size]

Laughing

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Check it out Jo.....

Sexy Feet

Many scholars accept feet were used as convenient metaphors for the genetalia. Keen, perhaps, to downplay emphasis on the generative process, the belief set of many pagan religions, the ancient Hebrews took the foot and made it a gender icon.

'And he said, Behold now, my lords, turn in. I pray you, into your servant's house, and tarry all night, and wash your feet, and ye shall rise up early, and go on your ways. And they said, Nay; but we will abide in the street all night.'
Gen 19:2

In Isaiah (7:20) reference was made to the hair of the feet. Most authorities interpret this passage to mean pubic hair. By sexualizing the feet, there was need to cover them from uninvited gaze. In the vision of the Lord's glory, Isaiah described the six wings of the seraphims.

'and with twain he covered his feet.'
Isaiah 6:2

Centuries later, Christian art avoided showing feet of the Devine with only the more risque artists risking ex communication, by tempting viewers to glimpses of uncovered feet. Angels were painted with large wings, which covered their feet, hence, a representation of modesty. The term shoe, which had its derivation in Old English (Anglo Saxon), describes a cover but not as protection, instead it meant to partially conceal, in an alluring manner. In Biblical times feet were not sexually attractive but could become so, when embellished with sandals. The penis metaphor is most obvious in the Book of Ruth.

'And it shall be, when he lieth down, that thou shalt mark the place where he shall lie, and thou shalt go in, and uncover his feet, and lay thee down ; and he will tell thee what thou shalt do.'
Ruth 3:4

So please, no stinky feet.....

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I am encouraged.

I'm finding it hard to pull away from this thread. I must go.

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Eva wrote:

Kristie wrote:
yes, but the bible also says "husbands love your wives like Christ loved his church" which means do not take advantage of her. Treat her with respect and love. Making someone have sex with you despite the fact that they don't want to does not seem respectful or loving.

The bible can be interpreted any way you see fit. Man wrote it. Yes, it is the word of God but it has been re-written a million times since then. Perhaps someone biased it along the way? The bible was never meant to be taken literally. It is stories and proverbs from which you are to draw lessons.

No attack...this kind of thing makes me feel alive! :wink:

True, Kristie. It says, "Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave up his life for her...husbands should love their wives as their own bodies...He who loves his wife loves himself."

These passages are not necessarily about sex. They're about the IDEAL relationship between a husband and wife. If a husband loves his wife self-sacrificially, she will do anything for him in return. It's not about duty at all...it's about loving each other enough that both of you put the other's wishes first.

(Keep in mind that Paul never married. :wink: That's why he speaks in terms of ideals. Had he married, he might have had more practical advice.)

Right, which is why I say that I can't believe the duty thing. NO where does it say that. Smile

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shewolfnm wrote:

Christie.. i have a question about the catholic church.
Why is it a necessity for couples NOT to use birthcontrol to remain in the churchs graces? Is that a trumped up rumor? Or is that true?

Yes, it is the practice of the Catholic church to tell couples that birth control by any means other than the rhythem method (which we all know does not work) is as bad as an abortion, as this is what the pill does. It tricks your body into thinking it is pregnant (so you don't get so for real) and keeps the egg from attaching to the wall of the uterus, even if it s fertilized. And if it is fertilized, that means it's by Catholic definition, a baby. And when you start your period and "flush" it out it is abortion. Understand?

I never got that whole thing. I mean, if it endangers the life of the woman to have kids, the Catholic church wants her to take that risk? Or what if you are super fertile and have 10 kids already....they want you to keep going until it kills you? Never got it.

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Some good advice in here. Some over reaching conclusions too. For example Debra, you said:
"She was probably sexually unsophisticated. She was probably reserved and bedroom shy. She needed time to grow, mature, and blossom sexually. But you didn't give her the gift of time and patience. Instead, you made requests that she felt uncomfortable about. When she voiced her discomfort, you disregarded her feelings and continued to hound her to do things she felt uncomfortable doing."
Actually my wife was more sexually sophisticated than I, when we met. Prior to our marriage and during it we have had a good to great sex-life. I am not sure how you could make the assumption she was unsophisticated and I have been hounding her for sex based on what I wrote, but perhaps you were just guessing.
The reality of the situation, as I stated is that since we have been having difficulty having a child, sex has decreased in quality and quantity. Which I am sure is a big factor in her decrease in libido.
There could be a number of other reasons for this. Sex became a routine thing to her. Actually I think it can become routine for any couple. This is why I was interested in trying something new, sometimes. It could be physical. If there is damage to ovaries sometimes there is a decrease in hormones, and hence less sex-drive.
Your advice regarding boundaries is good Debra, I was interested in some things outside her boundaries. I have come to learn that, and I respect that. I am sure there are things that I would not be willing to do. That is no big deal.
I am afraid many of you are not advising me, but are venting at some archetypal male chauvinist. I am not sure if it is a matter of admitting anything... It seems like Debra is a caught up in the confession aspect of Judeo-Christian society. Repent, then you can move on to the path of righteousness! OK, if that works for you great.
However your advice is good, you just need work on your delivery, it smacks of self-righteousness and condescension.

On to other replies. Joahaeyo, I am not a Christian, although I was raised one. I have a great respect for much of the Christian ideology. However most Christians moors on sex seem archaic to me. Regarding homosexuality, or even non-monogamous relationships. I always thought if the parties involved were consenting, why should other people, your friends and family, or even God care. Especially if all parties involved or happy productive individuals in society. But I am moving off topic.

Regarding servitude, obligation, or obedience. I am sure if my wife and I were Christian or of another religion that holds these concepts of high regard I could evoke that privilege. However, I do not think I would want to. That strikes me as a slippery path, with resentment waiting at the end.

Finally Bi-polar bear. As for permission to cheat (look for sex elsewhere). That is a viable option, but it has many difficulties. It is much the case of easier said than done.
The first difficulty is that I am attracted to my wife. She is the sexiest, most beautiful, and compatible person I have ever met. I think that is why we are married. Smile

So looking for someone else is possible, but I'd rather just have a healthy sex-life with my wife.
Second, she knows about my desire for sex outweighs hers. She has told me that I could find a sex-friend if I wanted to. Her only condition is that she not be aware of it. The condition is possible to some degree. Yet, there is always a chance for any number of reasons that she would know.
Third, lets say I did get a sex friend, and the sex-friend was aware of my arrangement with my wife. A whole new can of worms is opened if either I or my sex-friend have an emotional attachment in addition to the sexual companionship.
If my wife's desire not to have sex continues for an indefinite amount of time. I might explore this perilous option.

Fortunately, my wife and I can talk things out like two adults. But it is nice to discuss my feelings in my native language as well. It's good to have this forum. And I appreciate all the good will and advice.

For those that think you have it all figured out. I advise you think about the complexity of our universe. It's never very simple. There is black white, and an infinite number of shades of gray.

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Very nice post, iloveher. I agree with much of what you have to say.

How are things going these days?

Are you considering talking like adults in the presence of a professional counselor?

(Glad to see you come back, was worried you were permanently chased off.)

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boundaries and consequences

iloveher wrote:

I am not sure how you could make the assumption she was unsophisticated and I have been hounding her for sex based on what I wrote, but perhaps you were just guessing.

No quessing required. You're the one who said your wife was afraid that your demands (hounding) for "kinky" sex would escalate:

iloveher wrote:

She said she did not see a point in having sex, if we could not have kids. She just does not enjoy it, and my passion for sex was too strong. Also, she was afraid of my desire to do kinky things. She just did not want that to esculate[sic].

You're the one who said your wife would get so upset with your (hounding) demands that she would immediately cease intimacy:

iloveher wrote:

It was fine if I met her needs sexually but if I requested anything or wanted to try something new she would get turned off, sometimes stopping in the middle of sex.

You're the one who said your wife no longer wanted to have sex with you:

iloveher wrote:

Anyway, she said she would rather not have sex all together.

Certainly, you would rather blame your wife's refusal to engage in sex on infertility issues, but that only demonstrates your unwillingness to look at the whole picture and see that the problem is much more deep-rooted.

Your unwilliness to examine the inappropriateness of your demands is most evident in your reference to crossing boundaries as "no big deal."

iloveher wrote:

Your advice regarding boundaries is good Debra, I was interested in some things outside her boundaries. I have come to learn that, and I respect that. I am sure there are things that I would not be willing to do. That is no big deal.

Making demands upon your partner to do things they are uncomfortable doing is always a big deal and there are consequences. It's a love buster. See Marriage Builders: How do you know if your spouse is "in love" with you?

marriagebuilders wrote:

When I'm coaching my clients, I help them understand that there is a third, and more effective way to find out if your spouse is in-love with you. Ask yourself "Should _____ be in love with me?" In other words, are you giving your spouse a reason to be in-love with you?

Another thing (in your case) that should be asked is whether you are giving your spouse a reason to have sex with you (or reasons NOT to have sex with you). It might be helpful to review the love busters articles.

Quote:

The love you and your spouse have for each other is directly affected by almost all of your behavior. . . . Why would any of us hurt the one we promised to love and cherish?

Lack of empathy is at the core of the problem . . . One of the most important consequences of our emotional isolation (lack of empathy) is that we cannot feel the way we affect others. And that creates the temptation to hurt others because in doing so we don't feel the pain we cause. . . .

Lack of empathy helps makes thoughtlessness possible. Since we don't feel what other's feel, we tend to minimize the negative effects we have on others, and consider our thoughtlessness to be benign. An angry outburst is regarded by some as a creative expression. Disrespect is viewed as helping the other spouse gain proper perspective. And a demand is nothing more than encouraging a spouse to do what he or she should have done all along. None of these is seen as one spouse gaining at the other's expense, because the spouse who is inflicting the pain does not feel the pain. . . .

I've found that the most common Love Busters in marriage fall into five categories: Selfish Demands, Disrespectful Judgments, Angry Outbursts, Annoying Habits, Independent Behavior and Dishonesty

The first three of these Love Busters are instinctive, yet thoughtless, ways to try to get what you want from each other. When a request doesn't work, a spouse will often revert to a demand ("I don't care how you feel -- do it or else!"). If that doesn't get the job done, a spouse will try disrespectful judgments ("If you had any sense, and were not so lazy and selfish, you would do it"). And then, when all of that fails, an angry outburst often represents the last ditch effort ("I'll see to it that you regret not having done it").

Of course, demands, disrespect and anger don't really get the job done. You generally don't do things for your spouse because of these Love Busters, you do them out of care and consideration. If your spouse is demanding, disrespectful and angry, you tend to be less caring and considerate, leading you to do less for your spouse. Instead of giving your spouse what he or she needs, demands, disrespect and anger cause you to resist. I want you to have what you need in your marriage, but demands, disrespect and anger will not get it for you. They will prevent you from having what you want if you revert to these destructive instincts.

You acknowledge that you have crossed your wife's boundaries and made requests (demands) for her to do things she is uncomfortable doing. You claim that you respect (???) that, but it is NO BIG DEAL. What? It most certainly is a big deal because your wife has declared her fear that your demands for kinky sex will escalate. Because you have no empathy for her feelings and do not understand that it IS A BIG DEAL, your wife has completely withdrawn from you sexually.

You can blame infertility and completely disregard your bad behavior (selfish demands and lack of respect for your wife's boundaries), but you're only deluding yourself.

iloveher wrote:

I am not sure if it is a matter of admitting anything... It seems like Debra is a caught up in the confession aspect of Judeo-Christian society. Repent, then you can move on to the path of righteousness! OK, if that works for you great.

You don't have to admit anything. You don't have to assess your own conduct. You don't have to take any of the blame for wife's refusal to have sex with you. You can be the self-righteous one. It's your problem and you can deal with it as effectively or ineffectively as you want to. The consequences are yours.

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Re: boundaries and consequences

Debra_Law wrote:

Your unwilliness to examine the inappropriateness of your demands is most evident in your reference to crossing boundaries as "no big deal."

iloveher wrote:
Your advice regarding boundaries is good Debra, I was interested in some things outside her boundaries. I have come to learn that, and I respect that. I am sure there are things that I would not be willing to do. That is no big deal.

Making demands upon your partner to do things they are uncomfortable doing is always a big deal and there are consequences.

Just to pick on this one example from your post, DebraLaw, the way I read his post was that it was no big deal to him to have to respect her boundaries - as it shouldn't be.

Kudos to him.

It seems to me that your inclination to project a certain someone or a certain type of someone, with whom you have great issues, on to iloveher (and others) is by now leading you to blatantly misread what he posts.

I'd suggest iloveher to focus on the constructive advice he's been getting here, and filter out as much as possible posts that appear to refer to something other than himself.

I, for one, wish you good luck, iloveher - but you seem to have a fair grasp of the perils involved in the scenarios you sketch.

Personally, I would not mention the idea of a "sex friend" anymore, period, until you get this talked and sorted out some more with her, preferably with some outside help. Even if she did agree with the hypothetical possibility herself and all, the idea that you are keeping this alternative "in reserve" if she doesn't meet you half-way enough might well drain her of the willingness or self-confidence to even try sorting it out with you herself.

I'd say, avoid any sense of explicit time-limits or ultimatums - make clear to her that you're 100% committed to talking this out with her (and a counsellor - you could insist on talking about it together with a counsellor). If it does become too tough, you can always promise yourself that you'll look at all the alternatives again if nothing has changed after x time, but I wouldn't use it as an argument, because I'm guessing it might stifle any effort on her part.

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Re: boundaries and consequences

nimh wrote:

Just to pick on this one example from your post, DebraLaw, the way I read his post was that it was no big deal to him to have to respect her boundaries - as it shouldn't be.

If it was "no big deal" for him to "respect her boundaries," why didn't he do it then? If he had truly respected his wife's boundaries, she wouldn't be expressing fear of his escalating desires for kinky sex and then completely withdrawing from him sexually.

nimh wrote:

It seems to me that your inclination to project a certain someone or a certain type of someone, with whom you have great issues, on to iloveher (and others) is by now leading you to blatantly misread what he posts.

How amusing. You attack my opinions by claiming that I must be the one with the sexual problems. ROFL. Maybe YOU'RE the one with the "great issues" since you seem to be so bothered by my assessment.

Mr. Poster "iloveher" has a wife who refuses to have sex with him because she is afraid of his kinky demands and he wonders why she no longer enjoys sex. That's his problem, not mine.

nimh wrote:

I'd suggest iloveher to focus on the constructive advice he's been getting here, and filter out as much as possible posts that appear to refer to something other than himself.

The poster ("iloveher") may not appreciate objective opinions. He may not appreciate that someone might point out to him that it was HIS selfish demands and disrespect that caused his wife to turn away from him sexually. So what? This is a discussion board and sometimes people say things you don't want to hear. But, the sooner he faces the truth, the sooner he can fix things.

Mr. Poster can take whatever opinions, advice, or suggestions that he finds helpful and disregard the rest. He can engage in constructive self evaluation or not. Sometimes--when you post on a discussion board--people are not always going to pat you on the back and tell you what you want to hear. And when you respond, you can suggest whatever you want. You can denigrate other people's opinions--which you do. But the bottom line will always be this: The problem is HIS problem. He can address HIS problem effectively or ineffectively. He is the one who must suffer the consequences.

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Thanks Nimh.

Sorry for putting you on the defensive Debra, I just think your style of writting is very unconvincing for me. Even if there is good advice, and maybe even good intentions, the combativeness of your language makes me just want to glaze over your posts. The first one I read all the way through. That last diatribe, I leave to the people who like to go to Hyde Park in London on Sundays. (They have all sorts of nuts standing on soap boxes shouting thier doctrines. Its kind of fun to listen to from time to time. However there is no way of talking to many of these people.)

Sozbe, thanks, no I did not consider a professional. I think we would have to find a pretty spectacular professional. As my and my wife's native language are different. The two of us communicate very well, but living in a non-English speaking county, I find that often profesionals in a 3 person setting will talk to the native speaker almost exclusively or talk trough the native speaker. I am sure we could work though the language problems, but if I went to a professional, I would like to have as few side issues as possible, considering the gravity of what is happening (and not happening) in our relationship. But it was not something I serriously considered. Now, I will keep it in mind.

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iloveher wrote:

Sozbe, thanks, no I did not consider a professional. I think we would have to find a pretty spectacular professional. As my and my wife's native language are different. The two of us communicate very well, but living in a non-English speaking county, I find that often profesionals in a 3 person setting will talk to the native speaker almost exclusively or talk trough the native speaker.

Yes, thats a tricky one. I went to a few sessions with my then-girlfriend (actually, my then-already ex-girlfriend, long story), here in Holland - I'm Dutch, she isn't (she spoke a bit of Dutch but her native language is English). And however professional these people were, they did inevitably tend to succumb at times to the temptation of talking to me more, or through me, because I speak the same language as them. At least I ended up translating a word here or there, which already skews the conversation.

But depending on the person, it doesn't need to be more than a peripheral disturbance. First off, we insisted that the whole conversation would be in English, her language, every time. That to neutralises my 'home advantage', so to say. That really helps. Of course, it requires finding a counsellor who speaks and understands English well. We had a mixed record on that. Our first session was with both our therapists and some head honcho they had "mediating". His English was terrible, he misunderstood a lot. It exasperated my friend. So we talked about it afterwards and we had it known that we didnt want him there anymore. The remaining sessions were with both our own therapists - both Dutch, but both well able to speak English. And they did really help.

Where do you live? Do people speak English there, generally? Or alternatively, is there an expat community around there? If there's an expat community, you can bet that there'll be some English-speaking therapist around as well.

I'd recommend it in any case. You might be right about wanting "to have as few side issues as possible", but then, their job is to help you sort out all kinds of side issues. The one added by what is whose native language, if you can find someone who does speak English well and is willing to do the session in English, might just be one of the lesser problems you face. Its good to remember that the side issues you create for each other in the relationship are likely to be far more complicated than the ones posed by such practicalities ... and trying to sort them all out by yourselves might just keep you in ever the same miscommunications, or add layers ...

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Listening

iloveher wrote:

Sorry for putting you on the defensive Debra, I just think your style of writting is very unconvincing for me . . . glaze over your posts. . . .

You don't need to apologize. If you are unwilling to listen to your wife, someone you claim to love, why would you listen to a stranger? I'm sure you glazed over her words too, didn't pay attention to or heed your wife's concerns, and now you're facing a crisis.

This is YOUR problem. If you truly love your wife, you will educate yourself and learn how to deal with the problem in an effective manner. You will do whatever it takes to make your wife happy and build a better marriage. Again, I recommend the marriage builders website. You might want to pay special attention to this article:

How to Overcome Sexual Aversion

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Joahaeyo wrote:

IMO, that's a very selfish attitude. She may not know how essential sex is to a man. Yes, I think that's possible because a lot of men do not understand that what a women needs either.

Even as a Christian (myself), I understand I have an OBLIGATION to submit to my husband WHENEVER he wants (with respect to my health and common sense).

She may just need to understand that saying no sex to you would be like you saying: I don't see a point in celebrating Valentine's, holding hands, or saying I love you anymore ...because I don't have any energy left since you've given me NONE. You are not worth the work or time now. /then throw your nose in the air and walk off.

Is it that drastic? ABSOLUTELY.
She doesn't have to understand WHY you have this need, but that you have it. Just like men don't understand why we must do this, that, or the other.

Have you guys tried counseling?

Most counselors will say:

Sex for a man = full cup
Cleaning a house, love notes, and appreciation for a woman = full cup

Joahaeyo,

My husband would like you to divorce and marry him.. He would love it if I submitted to him everytime he wanted sex. Actually I think I would have to quit my job and stay in bed all day.

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I laughed. : )

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My wife and I had the same problem, but with a wrinkle. After many years of an asexual marriage, my wife finally realized that she *wanted* a physical relationship, but she didn't want one with me. I am the only person she's ever had sex with, and she hated the sex, and if she knew the sex was going to be no good, then she didn't want to have a physical relationship with no hope of a good payoff in the end. But she missed the physicality.
In short, she loves me very much but she no longer feels the things for me (emotionally or physically) that I still feel for her. I'm still completely in love with her, and we have two young children who we adore and could never be apart from. What to do?
I went with a solution that is extreme and unconventional, but the one that made the most sense to me. I gave her permission to have a physical relationship outside of our marriage. As I see it, this just makes sense. She's not going to have sex with me either way; I already know that she has sexual desire but no interest in me, and I don't feel any more rejected if she acts on it than I do just knowing her feelings. So I spelled it out to her and vowed up and down (and it's the truth) that my feelings won't be hurt if she chooses to do this. It's not cheating if you have sincere, ungrudging permission.
She has currently initiated a physical relationship with another man, though she says they haven't had sex. She's not entirely comfortable with the arrangement, feels funny about it, but is getting used to it. If she is able to work through her feelings, then I think this will work out ... she gets what she wants/needs, our kids still have a loving two-parent home, and I can live with the same asexual marriage arrangement that we've had all along.
I'm not saying this would work for everyone, obviously it wouldn't, but it works for us so far.

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you shouldn't feel badly about needing sex
insist on therapy or this will drag on for a long time
i feel deeply for your wife....
she needs someone to talk to for sure...
but she's neglecting her relationship and you
be patient and caring but don't accept less than you deserve either
You're not asking for the moon.

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Reading the last few posts here anew, after a time away, I feel very sad.

My own opinion is that you should move on and grab a sense of yourself.

And then I started to read back further and see it was a thicket of opinions and, to some extent, of situations.

I haven't reread Debra Law's post, just got started and felt uncomfortable, re flames coming at the reader.

All of us who ever post in the Relationships and Marriage forum are different people from different places, and if we ever all agree, it's a bonanza, but more likely, any person who asks a question will get varied responses.

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My wife does not want sex anymore.

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