28
   

No Justice, No Peace

 
 
Setanta
 
  2  
Reply Sun 20 Aug, 2017 12:14 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Then go ahead and ignore me, clown. Oh jeeze, that will be the end of my social life. For so long as some rightwingnut continues to try to push President Plump's failed analogy between Washington and Lee, I will continue to point out the reason the analogy fails. I am a "spokesman" for none but myself. If it weren't for straw men, you'd have no basis for argument at all.
Finn dAbuzz
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 20 Aug, 2017 01:52 pm
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:

Then go ahead and ignore me, clown. Oh jeeze, that will be the end of my social life. For so long as some rightwingnut continues to try to push President Plump's failed analogy between Washington and Lee, I will continue to point out the reason the analogy fails. I am a "spokesman" for none but myself. If it weren't for straw men, you'd have no basis for argument at all.


Don't flatter yourself, I've no intention of using the ignore feature to put a stop to your repetitive posts. I have no problem ignoring much of the dreck you post without the assistance of technology.

I've absolutely no doubt that you will continue anything anyone suggests you stop even if it makes you look like a pompous boor. I've also no doubt that you will continue to read and respond to the views of folks here as it pleases you and allows you to drive some argument of yours into the ground. I didn't even read or hear Trump's analogy between Washington and Lee is, but I do know that the driving force behind the movement to rid public places of Confederate monuments and now monuments to former slaveholders and racists has nothing to do with a disgust for treason, and that you have been responding to more than Trump's analogy.
Setanta
 
  2  
Reply Sun 20 Aug, 2017 07:27 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
When it comes to pompous boors, you certainly would be the expert. You know nothing, absolutely nothing, about what motivates me. That makes you the king of the pompous boors.

In addition, you can't say anything without using about ten times as much space as is needed.
oralloy
 
  -3  
Reply Sun 20 Aug, 2017 08:17 pm
@snood,
Some bigots march and chant "Jews will not replace us". Other bigots post anti-south cartoons on a2k.

In the end though, one bigot is just as disgusting as another.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -3  
Reply Sun 20 Aug, 2017 08:36 pm
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:
For so long as some rightwingnut continues to try to push President Plump's failed analogy between Washington and Lee, I will continue to point out the reason the analogy fails.

Your big problem is, the analogy does not fail. The only thing that is failing here is your attack on the analogy.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -3  
Reply Sun 20 Aug, 2017 08:37 pm
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:
You know nothing, absolutely nothing, about what motivates me.

What does it matter what motivates you? You post grossly unfair attacks against the south, and you resort to aggressive name-calling when someone dares to stand up to your bigotry.

Whatever your motive is, how do you differ from that guy who attended a Nazi rally and then drove a car into people who opposed him in any way other than degree of aggression?


Setanta wrote:
In addition, you can't say anything without using about ten times as much space as is needed.

I envy him for that ability. I couldn't make a post that long and fill it with thoughtful content if my life depended on it.

Of course, I have my own ability to make my answers extremely concise and still be entirely factual. But sometimes a well-written long and thoughtful post adds a lot to the substance of a thread.
0 Replies
 
snood
 
  4  
Reply Sun 20 Aug, 2017 09:33 pm
@Setanta,
Quote:
you can't say anything without using about ten times as much space as is needed.

He's making snotty comments about my needing ADHD medication because I don't want to read through his goofy circuitous posts. Does he honestly believe ANYONE wants to read that boring tripe?
ehBeth
 
  2  
Reply Mon 21 Aug, 2017 12:48 pm
https://www.vox.com/identities/2017/8/21/16179058/homicide-justifiable-black-white-race

Quote:
If you kill someone, whether the criminal justice system throws you in prison may come down to your race.

That’s the takeaway from a recent report by Daniel Lathrop and Anna Flagg at the Marshall Project. They looked at federal data to analyze the circumstances in which a homicide was deemed “justifiable” by police. Their findings were astounding:

In almost 17 percent of cases when a black man was killed by a non-Hispanic white civilian over the last three decades, the killing was categorized as justifiable, which is the term used when a police officer or a civilian kills someone committing a crime or in self-defense. Overall, the police classify fewer than 2 percent of homicides committed by civilians as justifiable. …

In comparison, when Hispanics killed black men, about 5.5 percent of cases were called justifiable. When whites killed Hispanics, it was 3.1 percent. When blacks killed whites, the figure was just 0.8 percent. When black males were killed by other blacks, the figure was about 2 percent, the same as the overall rate.

The racial disparity held up after controlling for different circumstances. When they adjusted for how well the killer and victim knew each other and how the victim was killed, white-on-black-men homicides were two to 10 times as likely to be called “justifiable.” And when controlling for age in addition to those other factors, white-on-black-men homicides remained 4.7 times as likely to be called “justifiable” as other cases. The disparity also seemed to hold up across the country, according to the report.


I wish this was wrong or a surprise.
Setanta
 
  4  
Reply Mon 21 Aug, 2017 01:00 pm
@snood,
He seems to think that being prolix establishes him as the thinking man's conservative. All while he pukes up shop-worn right wing clichés and the latest party line from President Plump.
edgarblythe
 
  3  
Reply Tue 22 Aug, 2017 01:06 pm
Marcellus Williams is due to be executed on Tuesday but his supporters say his case exposes a racist system.

For those involved in it, Williams' case is especially troubling. According to a new report by a DNA expert, the male DNA on the murder weapon, a knife, did not belong to Williams but to a third, unknown person. Gipson says that new evidence was presented to Missouri's Supreme Court on August 14, but that less than 24 hours later, the court decided "based on the court files, that the execution should go ahead anyway".

"For many folks, this case is an example of the system's inability to respect the lives of people of colour," says Pratt. "There are recorded cases of confessions that are given after beatings and evidence that has disappeared. And then there is Williams' case, where there is no evidence that he committed the crime but he's still on death row."

"There is no conclusive evidence, the testimonies contradicted each other and the fact that there were almost none of Williams' peers in the majority white jury shows the brokenness of our system."

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/2017/08/marcellus-williams-broken-justice-system-170820131952701.html
edgarblythe
 
  3  
Reply Tue 22 Aug, 2017 03:07 pm
@edgarblythe,
edgarblythe wrote:

Marcellus Williams is due to be executed on Tuesday but his supporters say his case exposes a racist system.

For those involved in it, Williams' case is especially troubling. According to a new report by a DNA expert, the male DNA on the murder weapon, a knife, did not belong to Williams but to a third, unknown person. Gipson says that new evidence was presented to Missouri's Supreme Court on August 14, but that less than 24 hours later, the court decided "based on the court files, that the execution should go ahead anyway".

"For many folks, this case is an example of the system's inability to respect the lives of people of colour," says Pratt. "There are recorded
cases of confessions that are given after beatings and evidence that has disappeared. And then there is Williams' case, where there is no evidence that he committed the crime but he's still on death row."

"There is no conclusive evidence, the testimonies contradicted each other and the fact that there were almost none of Williams' peers in the majority white jury shows the brokenness of our system."

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/2017/08/marcellus-williams-broken-justice-system-170820131952701.html

Missouri governor stays execution of convicted killer amid new DNA evidence
snood
 
  3  
Reply Tue 22 Aug, 2017 03:30 pm
@edgarblythe,
Thank goodness for that small sliver of sanity. Hopefully the stay holds, and they overthrow this conviction.
0 Replies
 
snood
 
  3  
Reply Wed 23 Aug, 2017 09:24 am
Well, they are about to execute a white man in Florida for murdering a black man. Why is this noteworthy? Because the state has never executed a white man for killing a black man before. Is this significant because it highlights the raw race discrimination in the criminal justice system, or because it shows a sign of progress, or both?

Quote:
For the first time in state history, Florida is expecting to execute a white man Thursday for killing a black person — and it plans to do so with the help of a drug that has never been used before in any U.S. execution.

Barring a stay, Mark Asay, 53, is scheduled to die by lethal injection after 6 p.m. Asay was convicted by a jury of two racially motivated, premeditated murders in Jacksonville in 1987.

The planned execution — Florida's first since the U.S. Supreme Court halted the practice in the state more than 18 months ago — is expected to be carried out using etomidate, an anesthetic that has been approved by the Florida Supreme Court. Two other drugs also will be used.

Asay, who is white, fatally shot Robert Lee Booker, 34, a black man, after making multiple racist comments, prosecutors said. Asay's second victim was Robert McDowell, 26, who was mixed race, white and Hispanic. Prosecutors say Asay had hired McDowell, who was dressed as a woman, for sex and shot him six times after discovering his gender.


http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/florida-white-man-killed-black-person-executed-49376123
izzythepush
 
  3  
Reply Wed 23 Aug, 2017 10:40 am
@snood,
Don't know what to say, shocked this is a first, sort of pleased re progress, but I'm also against capital punishment, so I'm in a right pickle.
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  4  
Reply Wed 23 Aug, 2017 07:27 pm
A story being passed around online states that Rosa Parks' daughter has been praising and defending President Trump. She had no daughter.
Finn dAbuzz
 
  0  
Reply Wed 23 Aug, 2017 09:06 pm
@snood,
Quote:
While Asay would be the state's first white man to be executed in Florida for killing a black man, at least 20 black men have been executed for killing white victims since the state reinstated the death penalty in 1976, according to data from the Death Penalty Information Center. A total of 92 Florida inmates has been executed in that time period.


So this leaves 71 executed murderers unaccounted for. It would be illuminating to learn the facts on their race, ethnicity or gender. Likewise, it would be helpful to know how many black men have been charged with killing white men since 1976, and how many were convicted. Also, same figures as respects alleged and convicted white killers of black men. Not saying that racism hasn't been intertwined in the FL justice system over this period but there are obvious gaps in this presentation of figures that should be filled.

Do you think the man would have been sentenced to death and executed if the jury didn't buy that the murders were racially motivated? There must be some facts missing from the description of the murder of McDowell. I'd be willing to wager a large sum of money that if you told 100 people that a man killed a transvestite prostitute after he discovered that she was a he, their first question would not be "Hhmmm. What were the races of the two people involved?" In the absence of additional evidence, the fact that one was white and one Hispanic and white (which at least in the case of George Zimmerman means white) certainly seems irrelevant given the circumstances.

If someone supports the death penalty, I can't imagine them not thinking that this was a just outcome, but I also can't imagine the same person thinking it was unjust if Asay had killed the two in the course of robbing them or because he just wanted to see them die. Along the same line I can't imagine anyone who opposes the death penalty on principle either finding this outcome just and humane or reveling in the execution, but then I also don't understand why a murderer who kills someone due to hatred is a worse killer than one who doesn't, or why the victim of a hate crime murder is somehow more of a victim than someone who is murdered for greed or out of anger. We should be clear too that the people who advocate for harsher justice for perpetrators of hate crimes don't mean all hate. Every year hundreds of husbands and wives who hate their spouses kill them, but I don't believe any are charged with committing a hate crime where such statutes exist, nor do hate crime statute advocates argue they should be.

A Jew, a Muslim, a Black a Gayor even a White who is murdered because the killer hated what they were are not more dead than those murdered for other reasons, and if someone argues that there is no evidence that the death penalty acts as a deterrent, the dynamics behind that conclusion are not changed if hatred is involved. If anything, it's likely to have even less of a deterrent effect on those who murder for greed since most hate crimes are, almost by definition, crimes of passion. In order for a consequence to be a deterrent, the criminal needs to consider it before he or she commits the crime. So if someone changes their position on the death penalty when racist hatred is involved it's due to nothing more than their having found a crime for which they viscerally feel the need for retribution.

I oppose the death penalty for political reasons: I don't want the State to have that power of life and death over its citizens. The other case being discussed here is a good example of why it shouldn't and that doesn't change when the crime is motivated by hatred.
snood
 
  3  
Reply Thu 24 Aug, 2017 05:57 am
@edgarblythe,
edgarblythe wrote:

A story being passed around online states that Rosa Parks' daughter has been praising and defending President Trump. She had no daughter.
\
It's one of the right wing's favorite tricks - co-opting a Democratic icon. In this case it was a fake one. They love to parade Alveda King -MLK's niece - around at their "rallies", because she's the only member of MLK's extended family who they could get to sell her soul.
snood
 
  2  
Reply Thu 24 Aug, 2017 05:58 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
As ever Finn your views on race and the justice system will be given the consideration they deserve.
edgarblythe
 
  2  
Reply Thu 24 Aug, 2017 06:04 am
I never doubted my ability, but when you hear all your life you're inferior, it makes you wonder if the other guys have something you've never seen before. If they do, I'm still looking for it.
Hank Aaron
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  0  
Reply Thu 24 Aug, 2017 02:00 pm
@snood,
snood wrote:

As ever Finn your views on race and the justice system will be given the consideration they deserve.


And that's all I ever ask. I didn't really expect you to answer my questions but it was worth a shot.
0 Replies
 
 

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