28
   

No Justice, No Peace

 
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Jul, 2017 01:12 pm
@oralloy,
We've discussed this already, and I've provided you with my thoughts. If you don't agree with them, that's fine, but I don't see any point in restating them.
snood
 
  2  
Reply Thu 20 Jul, 2017 02:35 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:

snood wrote:

Do you agree that it is more likely to be a swift conviction than if the victim was a young black man and the shooter was a white cop? It's a pretty straightforward question, so I would greatly appreciate a short answer.


The question can't be answered simply with a "Yes" or "No." Sorry if that's not to your satisfaction

If the facts and circumstances were exactly the same except the victim was a young black man and the cop was white. I don't think there would be a material difference in the time it would take to achieve a conviction.


I don't think the race of the police in these shootings is a major factor, and unless it turns out that the victim made some gesture that could be interpreted as menacing, I don't think that if she had been a young black man it would make a material difference.

The cop who recently got off for shooting the black man in his car who had a gun but wasn't pointing it at the officer or even holding it, was able to convince the jury he had reason to fear for his life. As I've written I don't think he should have been found not guilty, but I don't think that jury or juries in general are inclined to dismiss any and all shootings of young black men by cops (regardless of the cop's race). They do, though, seem to be inclined to give cops every single benefit of the doubt though. Unless additional facts develop in this case I don't see that there is anything at all to doubt and it would the same if the victim were black.

If there is more to this story that I'm aware of and the cop can make any even a flimsy case that he felt he and his partner were threatened, if it is truly only a flimsy one, then I think he will still be convicted. Unfortunately though, I am nowhere near as confident that would be the case if a young black man had been the victim, and I'm afraid that I wouldn't be shocked if the officer was found not guilty.



Okay, I hear you about the possibility of various circumstances that would render my question unanswerable by a yes or no. Let me ask you this:
All other things being equal, do you agree that it is more likely for a white victim of police misconduct to get a conviction on the police perpetrator than for a black victim?
ossobucotemp
 
  2  
Reply Thu 20 Jul, 2017 02:54 pm
@snood,
I'm an long time Los Angelina.
Don't get me started, but as a hint, I understand Snood.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  2  
Reply Thu 20 Jul, 2017 05:02 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Which cop was this one? There have been so many I don't even know which one you are referring to. That's how bad it has gotten.
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Jul, 2017 06:07 pm
@McGentrix,
I don't know the name of the cop or victim. It's the one where the black man in the car told the cop he had a gun in his glove box but still ended up getting shot to hell, because the cop panicked.
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Jul, 2017 06:34 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
I'll see if I can find it... in the mean time...

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2017/07/13/police-punch-teen-girl-after-mistaking-her-wanted-man/474909001/

http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/news/public-safety/sd-me-police-dog-20170712-story.html

https://www.click2houston.com/news/conroe-police-to-address-claims-of-brutality-leveled-by-mans-family

https://www.sacurrent.com/the-daily/archives/2017/07/13/family-accuses-sapd-of-excessive-force-threatening-10-year-old-boy

https://studionewsnetwork.com/police-news/cops-storm-bar-like-its-a-war-zone-assault-dozens-of-innocent-people/

http://ktla.com/2017/07/17/video-showing-arrest-of-street-vendor-in-perris-sparks-outrage/

This one?

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/ct-video-shots-officer-philando-castile-20170620-story.html
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Jul, 2017 07:29 pm
@snood,
snood wrote:

Okay, I hear you about the possibility of various circumstances that would render my question unanswerable by a yes or no. Let me ask you this:
All other things being equal, do you agree that it is more likely for a white victim of police misconduct to get a conviction on the police perpetrator than for a black victim?


Here again, it's not as simple as you would make it out to be, because I'm not at all certain you and I would agree in every instance as to whether the cop's actions constituted misconduct.

However, in cases where you and I both agreed that the cop was guilty of misconduct, generally speaking, I do think that it is more likely that the cop would be convicted if the victim was white than if he or she was black. I suspect we probably disagree on just how much more likely and under what circumstances it would more likely or roughly the same, but I'm comfortable with answering your question in this way.

I think the reason for this being the case is not overt racism on the part of so many jury members, but prejudice based on many people's perception of life in black communities. Crime statistics concerning young black men and low income black communities contribute to a perception that can but need not be accurate and so, I'm sure, does the Media and popular culture. Thug chic is no more a reliable indicator of individual propensities than heroin chic, Gothic chic, or any style fad that lends itself to young people posing as someone darker than they really are. A black kid who walks down the street with a hoody pulled down to partially cover his face and who affects what he believes to be a menacing swagger can easily be an A student who has never gotten in real trouble in his life but just wants to look cool.

(I sure as hell don't think anyone black or white (because there are plenty of white kids who have adopted thug chic) is cool because they look like a thug, but that's the whole point. I also don't see the cool in looking like a heroin addict or a ghoul from a cheesy horror film (aka a "Goth"), but all of these looks, of course, share something in common which makes them attractive to kids: Ordered, conventional society (including authority figures like their parents) generally hates them.)

Of course this doesn't mean that a kid who adopts the persona of a thug should be treated like one in the absence of actual thuggish behavior, but given human nature it's a risk they run (and probably don't appreciate as much as they should) to cultivate a cool image.

For a combination of reasons, people on juries tend to believe that black kids are likely to be thugs and especially if they dress like one. No doubt about it that this is prejudice and should never come into play in a jury's decision, but it sure seems clear that on too many occasions it does. At the same time, I think a white kid who tries to come across as a gang-banger through the way he dresses, talks and acts is likely to find himself the victim of prejudice in these situations too. The big difference, though, is that he has a better chance of shedding that image with a haircut, clean shaven face and a nice suit than a black kid probably does.

Now a white kid who actually is a thug; who has a juvenile criminal history, jailhouse tattoos on his neck and/or face, and talks like a punk is going to find himself at a great disadvantage too if he has a run-in with the police; even if he's (this time) 100% innocent (and alive). Of course if his parents are affluent citizens with any measurable influence within the Establishment he's on much firmer ground that the poor black or white thug. The threshold for affluent black parents being able to influence the process, I suspect is much higher than it is for whites, but power is power regardless of skin color, and a black parent with real power can influence the fate of his or her child in a criminal proceeding (racial equality in that regard certainly has improved).

What is most troubling to me though is that while I can't prove it and I doubt anyone can, I think that even young black men who cultivate an image that coincides with their regular civil and legal behavior are more likely to get caught up in the prejudice involved here. If there's a confrontation between a young black man and a cop and if it leads to violence and the death of the young man, too many people are prone to believe that the kid had to have somehow been at fault. I'm sure there are some who think this way about anyone who has a confrontation with a cop, but, in my opinion, it's far more prevalent when the victim is black rather than white.

This prejudice exists and it shouldn't, but it doesn't mean that every time a cop who kills a black man and goes free or every time a black kid is killed by a cop or convicted of a crime, the outcome can be attributed to prejudice, and I truly believe that people who seem bound and determined to make every one of these cases about skin color and prejudice are contributing to the toxic mess, not helping to clean it up.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Jul, 2017 07:33 pm
@McGentrix,
It's been referenced repeatedly in this thread.

If you're trying to make a point about frequency, you needn't for my benefit.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -3  
Reply Thu 20 Jul, 2017 08:18 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:
We've discussed this already, and I've provided you with my thoughts. If you don't agree with them, that's fine, but I don't see any point in restating them.

The only thing I recall was where you stated a wildly inaccurate narrative of the encounter, which I subsequently corrected. Since you didn't respond to my correction I'd figured you had understood the truth after I stated it.

I definitely prefer the truth over an inaccurate narrative. If you choose to believe in an inaccurate narrative instead of the truth, I won't be offended, but I'll probably still step in with the facts every time you or anyone else brings up unfair commentary about the cop who was involved in the shooting.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -3  
Reply Thu 20 Jul, 2017 08:20 pm
@McGentrix,
McGentrix wrote:
Which cop was this one? There have been so many I don't even know which one you are referring to. That's how bad it has gotten.

They are talking about the Minnesota case where the immediate aftermath of the shooting was streamed live on Facebook by the girlfriend in the passenger seat.

But yes there sure are a lot of these cases. BLM goons won't be happy unless America agrees to allow them to murder cops and white people with impunity.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -3  
Reply Thu 20 Jul, 2017 08:28 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:
I don't know the name of the cop or victim. It's the one where the black man in the car told the cop he had a gun in his glove box but still ended up getting shot to hell, because the cop panicked.

The cop didn't panic. The guy was shot because, after being told to not reach for the gun, he started reaching for something. And after repeated further commands (with growing urgency) to not pull the gun out, he kept on reaching and started to pull something out.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Thu 20 Jul, 2017 09:01 pm
@McGentrix,

Yes. That is the case that they were referring to.
0 Replies
 
snood
 
  3  
Reply Fri 21 Jul, 2017 09:37 am
The police chief in the Minneapolis shooting case is already making public statements against her own police officer and apologizing to the family of the Australian woman. It's kind of a departure from the usual "We can't comment on that since it's still under investigation", huh? It's a little different from the usual blue curtain of silence and solidarity drawn around cops. Yeah, I've got the strange feeling this might not be a long drawn out court case before they convict that Somalian cop.
oralloy
 
  -3  
Reply Fri 21 Jul, 2017 09:53 am
@snood,
Apologizing to the family seems reasonable. Condemning the officer before the results of the investigation, that is bad. That sounds like what they did to Betty Shelby.
0 Replies
 
snood
 
  3  
Reply Fri 21 Jul, 2017 09:54 pm
@snood,
snood wrote:

The police chief in the Minneapolis shooting case is already making public statements against her own police officer and apologizing to the family of the Australian woman. It's kind of a departure from the usual "We can't comment on that since it's still under investigation", huh? It's a little different from the usual blue curtain of silence and solidarity drawn around cops. Yeah, I've got the strange feeling this might not be a long drawn out court case before they convict that Somalian cop.


Curiouser still. That police chief just resigned. ???
ossobucotemp
 
  2  
Reply Sat 22 Jul, 2017 07:26 am
@snood,
Maybe she feels some self blame for the cop not having good judgement via training. Or maybe not, maybe she is just plain horrified.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Jul, 2017 07:31 am
@ossobucotemp,
There's definitely something wrong with the police in Minneapolis. Follow the link for accompanying video.

Quote:
A Minneapolis police officer shoots two service dogs while responding to a false alarm call, claiming they growled at him.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-us-canada-40687687/minneapolis-police-officer-shoots-two-dogs
ossobucotemp
 
  2  
Reply Sat 22 Jul, 2017 07:50 am
@izzythepush,
Geez.
ossobucotemp
 
  2  
Reply Sat 22 Jul, 2017 08:40 am
The plot thickens..

http://www.startribune.com/minneapolis-police-chief-janee-harteau-resigns/435864713/
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Jul, 2017 08:43 am
@ossobucotemp,
It's horrible, two obviously very friendly tail-wagging dogs just shot like that, not to mention the owner's daughter's distress.
0 Replies
 
 

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