Those were the days: when was America greatest? When was life in the US best?

This is your quote:

So you don't mention specific cities and you clearly state blacks "commit the majority of violent crime", not are disproportionally responsible. My posting clearly shows that is not true. Also your "well known facts" are also wrong as shown in the link I provided. White arrests are higher for illegal drugs.

The overarching point is that you immediately assign to race something that has many interlocking causes. It would be like saying "You know, Congress is completely dysfunctional and can't get anything done ... and it is because the majority of Congressmen are white males". It's a pretty stupid leap to assume that all of these people are useless in Congress because of their race or gender. Maybe not for you. You should probably be voting for black women for Congress whenever you can.

Your line of thinking is that of a racist bigot. You keep confirming it with every post.
Statistics does nothing to solve the problems. And people like you who can only depend on statistics to arrive at conclusions only shows your bigotry.
Does it make you feel superior to repeat this crap?

I'm not denying or agreeing with the claims about his political ideology.

The fact of the matter is that he is remembered and revered for his leadership of the Civil Rights movement, not his opposition to the Vietnam War or any other issue.

We don't have MLK Day because he was a heck of an orator when arguing for wealth redistribution.

I am suggesting that your idea of what the Civil Rights movement was might be very different than Martin Luther King's understanding of the movement.

Please, I am serious Finn. Read the words of Martin Luther King about the civil rights movement. I would start with "Letter from a Birmingham Jail" and then move toward his later work... "Where do we go from here".

I am suggesting read the actual words of Martin Luther King (rather than relying on the words that White conservatives wish that he said) if you want to understand what Martin Luther meant.

Then you could read modern African-American writers and thinkers, like Ta-Nehisi Coates, and see that they are continuing the message of Martin Luther King.

The issue that I have is that White conservatives a lying when they pretend that Martin Luther King agreed with them. It is a cynical deception.

Of course White conservatives are welcome to their own ideas and Martin Luther King was not God.... but let's at least be honest about what Martin Luther King actually said and how to this day it challenges and condemns White Conservativism.

I am absolutely serious in my Challenge Finn. Read Martin Luther King's speech not too long before his death entitled "Where do we go from here" in its entirety and then tell me how this isn't a solid rebuke of White Conservatism.

Martin Luther King opposed and condemned White Conservatism for the same reason that modern day progressives oppose White Conservatism. To pretend otherwise is ridiculous if you take the time to read what he actually said.

http://kingencyclopedia.stanford.edu/encyclopedia/documentsentry/where_do_we_go_from_here_delivered_at_the_11th_annual_sclc_convention/

What are you trying to say/prove?

That King wasn't a conservative? So stipulated!

That King was ideologically, left-wing? So stipulated!

That conservatives have no right to admire him? Bullsh*t!

Do you really think that there was nothing King and a White Conservative could agree upon? Nothing?

How about a Black Conservative?

Are they lying in saying MLK agreed with them?

You've chosen to draw a distinction between "White Conservatives" and "Non-White Conservatives" so perhaps you can tell us what that is, beyond color of skin?

I have no problem with conservatives admiring Martin Luther King, even if they only choose one thing to admire (and non-violence is often stated even though this was only one part of King's message of revolution). I do think that much of this is due to ignorance of what Martin Luther King actually said. If you tell me that you have actually read either of the pieces I suggested then I will lend a bit more credibility to your arguments.

What upsets me is when White Conservatives corrupt the message of Martin Luther King to try to make Martin Luther King into a Conservative (when in fact he was opposed to Conservatism in issues of race, economics, law and military policy).

GiuJohn wanted to celebrate Martin Luther King while denigrating every other African American thinker or writer since... as if Dr. King were the only good Black person and that every Black writer or thinker or leader since, including the people who worked and struggled and lived with Dr. King, has failed. This is not only offensive, it is also ridiculous.

I get your point about race and conservatism, and I accept you have a point... except that Martin Luther King put these issues in racial terms which makes this point a little more complicated.

According to FBI UCR:

Arrests, by Race, 2012

NOTE: The 69.3% statistic below includes all Hispanics...Blacks comprised only 12.5% of the total population.


In 2012, 69.3 percent of all individuals arrested were white, 28.1 percent were black, and 2.6 percent were of other races.
Of all juveniles (persons under the age of 18) arrested in 2012, 65.2 percent were white, 32.2 percent were black, and 2.5 percent were of other races. Of all adults arrested in 2012, 69.7 were white, 27.6 percent were black, and 2.7 percent were of other races. White individuals were arrested more often for violent crimes than individuals of any other race, accounting for 58.7 percent of those arrests.

The percentages of black adults and white adults arrested for murder were similar, with 49.3 percent being black and 48.3 percent being white.

Black juveniles accounted for 51.5 percent of all juveniles arrested for violent crimes.

White juveniles accounted for 61.6 percent of all juveniles arrested for property crimes.
Of the juveniles arrested for drug abuse violations, 74.0 percent were white.
White juveniles accounted for 55.2 percent of juveniles arrested for aggravated assaults.

Adults arrested for violent crimes, white: 60.3%, Black: 36.8%

NOTE: The 69.3% statistic below includes all Hispanics...Blacks comprised only 12.5% of the total population.

What are you trying to say...and why are you trying to say it?

Did you read either of the writings by Martin Luther King? I think my use of the term "White Conservative" is one that he of which he would have approved.



The real Martin Luther King called out race. He often talked about "white society" and white rules and white law enforcement. That is exactly the point I am making, and the point he was making.

You have created a fake, Martin Luther King that will be acceptable to White conservatives. In doing so you are ignoring the real life, and the read beliefs and the real writings of the real Martin Luther King.

You don't see why trying to change what Martin Luther King actually said to make him acceptable to White conservatives is offensive? That is what you are doing.

Have you read either of the pieces I suggested you read?

You are being ridiculous.

I don't care that he used "White Conservative." I would ask him the same question I asked you. Since you consider yourself an expert on all of his inner thinking maybe you can answer it for him and yourself.

"White Society" was a whole lot different in MLK's day than it is today and that is the point I keep trying to make on both fronts of this debate.

You have created a fake, Martin Luther King that will be acceptable to White conservatives. In doing so you are ignoring the real life, and the read beliefs and the real writings of the real Martin Luther King.

You don't see why trying to change what Martin Luther King actually said to make him acceptable to White conservatives is offensive? That is what you are doing.


You can't help yourself, can you?

I have?

How and when?

I don't know who is trying to make MLK acceptable to those evil "White Conservatives," but if they are, what's the big deal?

Of course your answer is Ideological Purity, but from a practical point of view (and in issues of the conditions black people are enduring) isn't getting a problem solved more valuable than political soap box pronouncements?

So if we could summon the spirit of MLK, we could ask him a few questions:

Q: "So honored that you could be with us this afternoon Rev. King, and we promise we won't ask you any questions that might provoke an answer that is contrary to our mythos."
A: "No, don't worry about such things. Ask whatever questions you have.

Q: "Let's say, for discussion purposes, that "White Conservatives" make an attempt to claim that your message is conservative, and this leads to them being more kind, gracious and fair to black people. Will you blow a gasket?

A: I would be foolish to reject even only marginal improvements in the conditions of the people for whom I speak, unless it was part of a larger quid pro quo that required me to reject my principle

Q: From your spectral viewpoint, capable of looking back in time to when you walked the earth, do you think all your gave was worth it? Did all of your efforts and the efforts of brave men and women who joined your cause result in an America where it is the same or worse?

A: No, of course not. There is still much good work to be done, but no longer does there exist the almost unbreakable barriers of Jim Crow laws, Unpunished lynchings, a federal government that considers black citizens "second class" and widespread, public expressions of racism.

Q: Thank you Dr. King. Of course you know max is going to go apeshit over this dramatization?

A: Why would I care enough about what Max would like to be my positions regarding what are, essentially, tangential issues. Yes, Unions are important to America, and No, the Vietnam War never was something the US should ever have entertained, let alone send 50,000 American kids to their deaths. And for what? However, I have fought, my whole life, to create an America wherein black Americans can experience the American Dream. While we are not 100% there, there have been tremendous strides since my day. I only wish I could be there in body to lead the next wave.

Q: Were you a socialist; or even a Communist?

A: What? Have you been listening to me?

Finn, think about how ridiculous you are being.

You are literally making up words to put into the mouth of your imagined Martin Luther King. In contrast I am using the actual words of Martin Luther King, taken in context and with references.

Do you really not see the problem here?

I have challenged you on several occasion to read "Where Do We Go From Here", a speech given by the real Martin Luther King (rather than your caricature). Have you done this yet?

For you to make up words to put into the mouth of Martin Luther King to prove your point is bad enough. But you are making up words that contradict the things he actually said.

I will tell you what... here is my offer. All I am asking is that you read "Where Do We Go From Here" (or "Letter From a Birmingham Jail"). This will give you the experience of reading Martin Luther Kings real words and getting a sense of what he was actually about. If you do this, I believe it will challenge your thinking, not only on Martin Luther King, but about justice in American in general.

If you tell me honestly that you have thoughtfully read this piece (and I will believe you if you tell me), and you still hold on to your view of Martin Luther King, then I will concede the point and admit that you are right. All I want you to do is read the real words of the man in context and then tell me you don't think any differently.

I am not asking much. Do you accept my challenge?

http://kingencyclopedia.stanford.edu/encyclopedia/documentsentry/where_do_we_go_from_here_delivered_at_the_11th_annual_sclc_convention/

It's for engineer...I initially stated that blacks are largely disproportionately represented involved in violent crime by comparison to being only 12.5% of the population. He disputes it for fear of being labeled a racist by his fellow liberals.

So let's say you're right.

What's your point in posting that statistic?

Because engineer needs to be schooled I guess

Actually, the first time you stated your beloved statistic was in response to Real Music, who in his post quite evidently displayed the civility you require of users, but despite this you went on to attack his post, which BTW was addressed to giujohn. I guess you don't think other people deserve the "simple respect" you have asked for.

Anyway, Real Music posted an article which spoke about the injustices black people face in the US justice system. You must have found this very offensive, because you then decided to tell all of us that black people are responsible for a disproportionate number of violent crimes in an attempt to delegitimize the injustices that black people face.

Why did you do this? Because you are racist.

nope

that is not what you initially stated

this is what you posted








disproportionate does not mean not the same thing as majority

What I left out was that black males under the age of 18 commit the majority of violent crime compared to whites...my bad.

77% white ~225 million
13% black ~40 million
Whites committed 2,755 murders in 2013.
Blacks committed 2,698 murder in 2013.
So the black population of 13%(~40 million) commits almost as many murders as the white 77%(~225 million) of the population. That's a 5-to-1 ratio

Blacks account for 22.4% of all violent crime yet are 12.2% of the total population

I am just curious. Do you have a personal view or opinion about black people? If so, can you share what that view is?

Oh my gosh, you really do not want to hear his views on race. You will get a brain cramp of epic proportion if he responds.