Will Donald Trump Be Afraid To Debate Hillary Clinton?

Aquinas was a Catholic: not a Baptist
Nonsense. We nust vote before we know how the candidate will do in office, and the hell of it is that history does not reveal its alternatives. Knowledge of the candidates' past actions and insights to their characters are good indicators, but as history shows and I stated they are not always reliable. In addition, as I indicated, we have good reason to doubt the suitability of both candidates in this election. Neither meets the standards I would like to apply. The issue before us is which will do less harm given the state of the country now.

You are here merely projecting your own "idealogical rigidity". I suggested none of those alternative. Perhaps I should have asked you if you would have preferred Anthony Weiner to Trump.

Apparently you really do like the argument from authority! In a world of conflicting opinions among experts and in which the most esteemed of them are regularly proven wrong in history, how do you go about selecting those that are correct in this case? In fact you are merely using them as a handy sledge hammer to accomplish what your arguments don't.


Cut and run again?? Your word choice "... rough orange beast will slouch back..." suggests a wonderful poem of W.B. Yeats that describes this elkection season very well. It's "The Second Coming" Worth a read.

It does describe it well George, and I had forgotten that line:
"The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity."

My 10th grade English teacher coached me through Yeats
And now you've brought me back to him.
Thanks

My husband used to recite Yeats to me, back in the day.

That's funny. Nobody else complained about not being able to hear Trump. That Hillary won the debate is an indication everybody heard Trump. Even his supporters, about 27% of the audience, didn't complain.

Thank you.
Punishment for minor offenses in the Jesuit High shool I attend was called JUG, an acronym standing for 'Justice under God', but as we students said there was goddamn little justice in JUG. It usually consisted of three hours after class memorizing poetry or elocution pieces - if you could recite it, you could go home. If your parents objected they gave them the name of the family waiting for young George's seat.

Anyway, I learned a lot of Yeats there.

Blatham's lines about "... this rough orange beast will slouch back to where he came from", brought back the last lines of the poem
And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?

I agree with you, the first verse is best, and it does describe our current political situation rather well;

Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity

I believe it was written in 1919, just after WWI, and as Ireland descended from Revolution to civil war.

Slouching Towards Bethlehem was probably what triggered the connection.
It's ironic because Joan Didion's collection of essays dealt primarily with her attempt to be a journalist in the disorder of the 60's.
Much like the chaos of the present election where tweets and memes replace the great political writing of the Washington Post, Wall Street Journal and New York Times.
The archaic metro newspapers have lost their importance and we're the worse for it

I agree. We certainly live in chaotic times, a period of bewildering rapid change driven by new forms of communication, new economic models and fast social change.

Human civilization has survived many such episodes at different times and in different places: examples abound; Rome between Sulla and Octavian; France between 1790 and 1812; Europe and America during the rapid industrisalization of 1865 - 1885, and again during the generation after WWII (I'm sure I've skipped over a few even more prominent), Where this one will lead, I don't know.

Blatham quotes Joan Didon a lot, but I'm sad to confess I've never read any of her work. I fancy myself to be well read but there are large gaps - I spent the late 1960s & early 1970s on carriers in the Tonkin Gulf. I'll confess to having relatively little interest in contemporary writing: I prefer the ancients, the Renaissance, and writers of the 18th & 19th centuries. That annoys Blatham who values & relishes only contemporary stuff. I think time is a very good filter, and use it.

Did you know that Lincoln modeled the Gettysburg Address exactly on Pericles' funeral oration in Thucididies' Pelponesian War?

Perhaps you remember "The Song of the Wandering Aengus".
...... It's about our parallel lives in the real and dream worlds.

I went out to the hazel wood,
Because a fire was in my head,
And cut and peeled a hazel wand,
And hooked a berry to a thread;
And when white moths were on the wing,
And moth-like stars were flickering out,
I dropped the berry in a stream
And caught a little silver trout.

When I had laid it on the floor
I went to blow the fire a-flame,
But something rustled on the floor,
And someone called me by my name:
It had become a glimmering girl
With apple blossom in her hair
Who called me by my name and ran
And faded through the brightening air.

Though I am old with wandering
Through hollow lands and hilly lands,
I will find out where she has gone,
And kiss her lips and take her hands;
And walk among long dappled grass,
And pluck till time and times are done,
The silver apples of the moon,
The golden apples of the sun.

No, but I'd love to know more about that.

Writing in The New York Times, Charles Poore reported that "Bradbury(Golden Apples Of The Sun) "writes in a style that seems to have been nourished on the poets and fabulists of the Irish Literary Renaissance,"

No, I didn't memorize his words, was listening to his voice and what he said.

because he believed usa had no right to declare itself ruler of the world and take military actions over other countries ignoring international agreements or opinions about it

Well I recall one of the priests in Gonzaga High In Washington DC telling us that, as we read thru Thucididies work, and, if I'm not mistaken Pericles' oration, included there, was one of the things we had to memoriize (along with Lincoln's address) in JUG. Its themes and sequence of them are identical to those in Lincoln's address, ranging from the opening reference to forbearers; the reference to the democracy of the state, the sacrifices of the slain and an ending exortation of the living to continue the struggle to victory. In some cases the similarity of of word choices is uncanny.

I also recall reading a book about six years ago, I think by Historian Gary Wills, that elaborates on this at some length. I think the title was "Gettysburg" Thr focus was on Lincoln, the evolution of his recorded thoughts and actions leading up to the speech (throughout the long war). If memory serves he (Wills) had some very specific demonstrations of the connections.

In a similar vein I suspect Blatham of occasionally having read some real literature (as opposed to all the pseudo intelllectual progressive propaganda crap which he cites so relentlessly). I suspect it was some dim memory id Yeats that inspired his slouching comment. Perhaps there is some hope for him !

Well Bradbury's title certainly suggests Yeat's poem. I met a then fairly young Bradhury once (now a long time ago) in the Glouchester VA home of another Science fiction writer, Will Jenkins, one of whose daughters I was then dating. Jenkins wrote under the pseudonym of Murray Lenister - a fascinating guy, one of whose favorite themes was parallel universes, thoiugh he never achieved the fame that Bradbury later did.

Is Donald Chump intentional trying to lose the election with his never ending daily screw-ups? Or is Donald Chump truly the complete idiot that he portrays himself to be? Which ever it is, please don't stop. We Hillary Clinton supporters and we democrat supporters are greatly appreciative.

He's so completely self-absorbed and nuts that there would probably be no difference between how it looked if he was tanking intentionally, or just unable to get out of his own way.

I generally agree with your observations about Trump. However your annointed Hillary has some problems in that area too. With all the contributions she has amassed for campaigning, and the sympathetic support of both an Administration bent on protecting her from judicial accountability, and the obvious support of a majority segment of the media, it is remarkable that she isn't doing better than what appears to be the case. Indeed, in my view, the recent, significant nattowing (vanishing?) of the margins between her and Trump in the polls has much more to do with a growing disenchantment, with and distaste for, Hillary Clinton than any improvements in public perceptions of Trump.

Get ready for Trump's withdrawal from the debates!!!!


As news of Trump’s taxes broke, he goes off script at a rally in Pennsylvania

By Jenna Johnson October 2 at 4:47 AM
Trump imitates Clinton stumbling while ill with pneumonia

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2016/10/02/as-news-of-trumps-taxes-broke-he-goes-off-script-at-a-rally-in-pennsylvania/

At a rally in Manheim, Pa., Oct. 1, Republican presidential nominee Donald Trump mocked Democratic rival Hillary Clinton stumbling during a 9/11 ceremony after she had been diagnosed with pneumonia. "She's supposed to fight all these different things, and she can't make it 15 feet to her car," Trump said. (The Washington Post)

MANHEIM, Pa. — Donald Trump's campaign announced Saturday evening that the candidate would soon deliver a nine-sentence critique of comments Hillary Clinton made months ago about many of the millennials supporting her primary rival, Bernie Sanders. It was an attempt to latch onto a new headline in hopes of finally escaping the controversies that had consumed his week.

It didn’t work.

It took Trump nearly 25 minutes to read the brief statement because he kept going off on one angry tangent after another — ignoring his teleprompters and accusing Clinton of not being “loyal” to her husband, imitating her buckling at a memorial service last month, suggesting that she is “crazy” and saying she should be in prison. He urged his mostly white crowd of supporters to go to polling places in "certain areas" on Election Day to "watch" the voters there. He also repeatedly complained about having a "bum mic" at the first presidential debate and wondered if he should have done another season of “The Apprentice.”

As Trump ranted in this rural Pennsylvania town, The New York Times reported it had anonymously received Trump’s 1995 income tax returns, which show he declared a loss of $916 million -- a loss that he could use to avoid paying any federal income taxes for up to 18 years.

[Report: Trump could have avoided paying taxes for 18 years]

The evening capped one of Trump's worst weeks of the campaign season, one that started with his shaky debate performance on Monday night and went on to include a public feud with a former beauty queen, a middle-of-the-night tweet storm, attacks on the Clintons' marriage and an examination of an decades-old adult film that briefly featured Trump fully clothed.

A man waits for Donald Trump to arrive at a rally in Manheim, Pa., on Saturday. (Mike Segar / Reuters)

The rally started more than an hour and 40 minutes late because heavy fog delayed Trump’s arrival. His supporters grew tired of his looping musical playlist, at one point chanting: “Turn it off! Turn it off!”

When Trump finally took the stage, it was clear that he was worked up about something as he quickly rushed through his usual talking points. He read the first sentence of the prepared statement: “A new audio tape that has surfaced — just yesterday — from another one of Hillary’s high-roller fundraisers shows her demeaning and mocking Bernie Sanders and all of his supporters.”

Rather than continuing, Trump demeaned and mocked Sanders himself, saying that he has “a much bigger movement than Bernie Sanders ever had” and that he has “much bigger crowds than Bernie Sanders ever had.” Trump accused Sanders of tarnishing his legacy by making a “deal with the devil” and supporting Clinton.

“Crazy Bernie,” Trump said at one point.

[Here's another time a Trump rally turned into a rant: Nov. 13 in Fort Dodge, Ia.]

Eventually, Trump read a few more sentences, telling the audience that Clinton had described Sanders supporters as “living in their parents’ basements” and being trapped in dead-end jobs. Clinton made these comments more than seven months ago and seemed to sympathize with millennials who supported Sanders, although Republicans have tried to frame the remarks as an attack on young voters.

“In a really sarcastic tone because she’s a sarcastic woman,” Trump dryly said, going off-script.

He resumed his scripted spot: “To sum up…”

But he interrupted himself: “And I’ll tell you the other thing: She’s an incompetent woman. And I’ve seen it. She’s an incompetent woman.”

Halfway through the statement, Trump took a nearly 20-minute-long break to cover a range of topics, including these:

— He reflected on how his movement has “the smartest people… the sharpest people… the most amazing people.” He said the pundits — “most of them aren’t worth the ground they’re standing on, some of that ground could be fairly wealthy ground” — have never seen a phenomenon like this.

— He asked that the crowd if they are proud of President Obama, and they answered with a booming: “No!”

— He told the crowd to get a group of friends together on Election Day, vote and then go to “certain areas” and “watch” the voters there. "I hear too many bad stories, and we can't lose an election because of you know what I'm talking about,” Trump said. “So, go and vote and then go check out areas because a lot of bad things happen, and we don't want to lose for that reason.”

— He declared that he won Monday night’s debate even though he had a “bum mic.” He asked the crowd if they think that “maybe that was done on purpose.” They cheered.

— He recounted how the “dopes at CNN” and “phony pundits” refused to acknowledge how well he was doing during the primaries. “Then we started getting 52 percent, 58 percent, 66 percent, 78 percent, 82 percent," Trump said, not making clear what those numbers mean. "And they just didn’t understand what was going on.”

— He said Clinton could not fight bad trade deals or Russian President Vladimir Putin because “she can't make it 15 feet to her car,” alluding to video that showed Clinton buckling as she unexpectedly left a 9/11 memorial service early. Her doctor later said she had pneumonia. Trump then imitated Clinton by flailing his arms and jostling side to side. He walked unsteadily away from the podium as if he were about to fall over. “Folks, we need stamina,” Trump said. “We need energy.”

— He claimed that he has a “winning temperament” while Clinton has “bad temperament.” Trump continued: “She could be crazy. She could actually be crazy.”

Trump read one more sentence of the statement and accused Clinton of saying that “most of the country is racist” because she said at the debate that “implicit bias is a problem for everyone, not just police.”

[Two days after the debate, Trump responds to Clinton's comment on implicit bias]

“Did anybody like Lester Holt?” Trump said, naming the debate moderator as his crowd booed.

Trump read one more sentence of the statement, then brought up Clinton’s use of a private email server while she was secretary of state.

“She should be in prison, let me tell you,” Trump said. “She should be in prison.”

The crowd cheered and chanted: “Lock her up! Lock her up! Lock her up!”

“And she’s being totally protected by The New York Times and The Washington Post and all of the media and CNN — Clinton News Network, which nobody is watching anyways so what difference does it make,” Trump said.

Trump accused Clinton of “lies and lies.”

“How many people have acid-washed or bleached a tweet?” Trump asked the crowd. “How many? That you deleted? So you deleted it but that’s not good enough. No, this is getting crazy. Our country is becoming a third-world country.”

Trump read the final sentence of the statement but by that point, he had overshadowed his campaign’s planned headline with numerous other ones. And he kept adding to the list.

Trump called Clinton a “lousy speaker” and accused her of giving away the jobs of hardworking Pennsylvanians to please her donors.

“You’re unsuspecting,” Trump said. “Right now, you say to your wife: ‘Let’s go to a movie after Trump.’ But you won’t do that because you’ll be so high and so excited that no movie is going to satisfy you. Okay? No movie. You know why? Honestly? Because they don’t make movies like they used to — is that right?”

Trump yelled at the media to show his crowd, which he said would make for “better television,” pledged to win Pennsylvania and called supporters of international trade “blood suckers.”

“Oh, I could be doing the ‘Apprentice’ right now,” Trump said at one point, seeming to harken back to a happier time in his life. “I loved it — 14 seasons. How good was that? Tremendous success. They wanted to extend — I could be doing the ‘Apprentice’ now. Somehow I think this is a little bit more important. Do we agree? Just a little bit?”

[How reality TV gave us reality candidate Donald Trump]

As he spoke, dozens of people left the rally early, tired from standing for hours and hoping to beat the traffic. Those who remained leaned against walls, barricades and each other. One woman rubbed her knees. Another took a phone call: “I’m still here… He started an hour and a half late… I’ll call you whenever we get out of here.”

“I didn’t need to do this, folks,” Trump said of his candidacy. “Believe me. This is tough work… This is hard work. Believe me, folks. This is hard work.”

Trump told the crowd he’s beholden to his supporters and no one else.

“Hillary Clinton’s only loyalty is to her financial contributors and to herself,” Trump said. “I don’t even think she’s loyal to Bill, if you want to know the truth.”

The crowd gasped and many shouted: “Ohhhhh!”

Trump shrugged.

“And really, folks,” Trump continued, “really, why should she be? Right? Why should she be?”

He questioned how the Clintons earned so many tens of millions of dollars. He told a guy in the crowd he loved him even though he’s a guy. He pursed his lips as his supporters interrupted him with another “lock her up” chant. He reminded everyone that Bill Clinton was impeached because “everyone forgets.” He accused the media of allowing Clinton to “get away with murder.” He said African Americans will vote for him because he will fix their impoverished, dangerous neighborhoods that are “worse than war zones.”

“People walk to the office, they walk to get a loaf of bread, they get shot, their child gets shot,” Trump said.

He rattled off some campaign promises —taxes, energy, coal, farms — and then paused to note the upcoming 10th anniversary of the mass shooting at an Amish schoolhouse here in Lancaster County that left five girls dead.

“Tonight when you say your prayers, I ask you to remember those five young beautiful girls and their families,” Trump said. “Another issue we’re going to deal with is in certain ways so important. But when I tell you about what I just did, that is a special group of people. So say prayers, please. Okay? Just remember those people and what they went through.”

[Ten years ago her son killed Amish children. Their families immediately embraced her.]

It had seemed as if Trump was about to talk about gun control measures — which he has sharply opposed — but then stopped himself. Later in the speech he would praise the leaders of the NRA and promise to protect the 2nd Amendment.

Local Politics Alerts

Breaking news about local government in D.C., Md., Va.

He shifted back to trade and jobs moving overseas, repeating himself from earlier. And he complained again about his “bad mic” at the debate and “this character Lester Holt” who corrected him more than Clinton.

“You have 38 days to make every dream you ever dreamed for your country come true,” Trump said. “Do not let this opportunity slip away or be wasted. You will never ever have this chance again. Not going to happen again… You have one magnificent chance.”

Trump said he was finishing up but he kept going for seven more minutes. He congratulated himself on predicting the Brexit vote. He plugged a speech his daughter Ivanka Trump is giving in the state next week. He listed endorsements. He pointed at an American flag on stage. And he complained about Clinton’s “false” commercials.

“We are going to make America wealthy again,” Trump said as he wrapped up. “We are going to make America strong again. We are going to make America powerful again. We are going to make America safe again. And we are going to make America great again.”

Trump thanked and blessed the crowd, pumped his fist in the air and then stepped aside to join them in applauding his speech.


Jenna Johnson is a political reporter who is covering the 2016 presidential campaign.

I personally think he started taking meth to keep going on these campaign rallies of his and it is showing. Just my opinion. How did the NYT get ahold of his 1995 tax returns?

Here is the NYT article on it:

Trump Tax Records Obtained by The Times Reveal He Could Have Avoided Paying Taxes for Nearly Two Decades

He's on something alright.