Quote:"Because we're not Socialists. It doesn't work, and it's not American. There are better, smarter ways to control healthcare costs, without ripping a hole in our country."
Such as writing a Medicare Prescription bill which starts by giving $1,000,000,000 to the HMO industry . . . yeah, that's the American way, give as much cash to your cronies (and campaign contributors) as you can, and the people can rot . . . ain't it hard to breathe with your head buried in the sand?
What you do is pump this stuff out without regard for the truth of it and be smug when challenged on it and say something like "Well, if you're going to nitpick." but never retract anything, ever. Don't worry, people like lies they like.
Joe
SOPHIE = RED
This is sort of pathetic, Piffka. When I began this conversation with you--it wasn't partisan, or ugly. I thought you had asked a valid question, and I was attempting to explain it from a conservative point of view. This comment above is a weak, partisan attempt at point scoring--and totally off the topic. Even if I said--oh! touche. You would have made my point. Countries are attacked with no provocation all the time. You said a nation that isn't attacking other nations is safe. You are just wrong.
PIFFKA = DARKBLUE
Oh really? I'm pathetic and naive? ... and you aren't partisan? I'm not trying to be "ugly" about this. I'm trying to tell you what real people think. WE DID ATTACK A NATION UNFAIRLY. They weren't attacking us... It was a pre-emptive attack. Most everybody knows this.... most Republicans even admit it. This administration decided that it would shake up the world if we did something as audacious as 9/11. That was a criminal act and we are doing a criminal act. I am ashamed of this country's leadership.
I will have to thank you for the humor. I can't decide what you are saying here.
The reason you're confused is that you persist in poking thoughts into the middle of a quote. What I said was, we're spending too much on the military. Too much. I believe that if we have so much to spend (which I don't think we do... I hate borrowing money) then why aren't we spending it on healthcare?
The National Guard is for defense. Sending them off to fight is a strategy based on a wrong-headed 1970's doctrine. Don't you think it would be good if Florida had its National Guard at home right now to help with Hurricane Frances?
And we are certainly MUCH worse off than we were four years ago.
Can you prove that? My area is doing great. Jobs out the wazoo.
Lucky you. You must be in one of the states that Bush2 has favored. My state is not so lucky (we voted for Gore). We still have high unemployment and most of our science graduates are working at McDonalds. But, oh, that's right, you Republicans don't believe in Science.
We are not the richest country on earth.
Yes we are.
As a matter of fact -- that honor is given to Luxembourg. We do have a very high per capita... does everyone in your family have $36,200? I didn't think so. Y'see, richest means that we have really wealthy people here, but that's not you and it's not me.
We borrow the most and we use the most.
...and we've GOT the most.
Omigod. My ancestors would roll over in their grave.. Thank God somebody came up with the term Neo-Con, because I know Republicans, and you, my dear, are no REAL Republican. Gads.
Do I have to dig out some pitiful website that shows how much Geo.Bush & Co. has run the economy into a deficit? Who do you think gets the interest on that money?
Got some stats on that--and FOR HOW LONG if it is actually true.
This is hilarious... if I got some stats... then you'd find some other way to look through them. For example... the stock market is down (Sophie: No, it's up... I'm sure it is.)
I repeat -- Every economic indicator shows that we have lost ground during the last four years except for the pocket books of the very wealthiest Americans. The stock market is down, there are fewer jobs for more people, the average wage is down, the costs of goods is up.
The stock market is up, jobs are growing, the economy is good, housing starts are up, the manufacturing sector is way up, confidence is high (if you're a Republican)...
Up as of when? It was down 30 points on Friday and it hasn't grown a whit, not a whit, since Bush took office in January 01. Do you know how to use a five year graph? Go find a stock market analysis page and look it up.
The investments the tax cut was supposed to generate isn't showing up in the stock market. The capital investments are being done by-and-large outside of this country. Where do we want to go from here?
In searching for statements from Grover Norquist on his strategy of bankrupting the American government (he doesn't say it often), I just ran into this May 2004 lecture at the London School of Economics given by Paul Krugman...
http://www.lse.ac.uk/collections/LSEPublicLecturesAndEvents/pdf/20040526-WhitherAmericaPaulKrugman.pdf
1 World $ 51,410,000,000,000 2003 est.
2 United States $ 10,980,000,000,000 2003 est.
3 China $ 6,449,000,000,000 2003 est.
4 Japan $ 3,567,000,000,000 2003 est.
5 India $ 3,022,000,000,000 2003 est.
6 Germany $ 2,271,000,000,000 2003 est.
7 United Kingdom $ 1,664,000,000,000 2003 est.
8 France $ 1,654,000,000,000 2003 est.
9 Italy $ 1,552,000,000,000 2003 est.
10 Brazil $ 1,379,000,000,000 2003 est.
11 Russia $ 1,287,000,000,000 2003 est.
12 Canada $ 957,700,000,000 2003 est.
13 Mexico $ 942,200,000,000 2003 est.
14 Spain $ 885,500,000,000 2003 est.
15 Korea, South $ 855,300,000,000 2003 est
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When I say we have the most, and we are the richest, this is what I mean. We are the richest nation.
Nationalized healthcare will change that. We can maintain the money we need for the highest level of public goods--military, law enforcement, Social Security, VA, decent infrastructure, schools and all the things it seems many of you are taking for granted--if we create an environment that lowers healthcare costs.
It is easy to forget just how much better things are here--because we EXPECT it. It was hard won, and it can be lost.
Sofia wrote:
It is easy to forget just how much better things are here--because we EXPECT it. It was hard won, and it can be lost.
I couldn't agree more. Living overseas for the past 12 years has shown me over and over again just how materially good we have it compared to the rest of the world.
BUT... we are currently living $100 billion a month beyond our means (combined Federal and trade deficits). Sure, we're getting away with it, today. I just don't believe we can get away with it indefinately. And I don't think its going to be pretty when it comes time to pay the piper.
Sofia, what is that a list of?
Amazing lecture, Blatham. Thes answer to question #4 - What is the countervailing force to the shifts to the right? included this: "If you want to talk yourself into the pessimism that says this is unstoppable dominance by money politics, you can get there."
Psychologically speaking, I think that puts Americans into one of three states:
1- people really do lose heart and QUIT VOTING with conviction;
2 -people associate themselves with power for the rewards it brings;
3 - people revolt. This third is what I'd call the anger of "Seattle Man" and gross public protest.
Sorry, freeduck--
It is the GDP. The Gross Domestic Product. And, when you compare us to China, who is next, with their statistics on health, personal income,...we are doing much better. We are doing better than almost all other nations.
I agree with you, Jim, that we shouldn't plan to float on a deficit. I'm not happy with it. But, we've been there before, and we'll be there again. Confidence is high. The markets are stable. We'll pay it off. Its not like a deficit is a new thing. Nothing to aspire to--but nothing to cower from.
We'll be ok.
Shall we compare wealthy areas with poor areas in America or is that "class warfare?" It seems to be okay to flaunt that we are the wealthiest nation compared to those "poor" nations except that many of those European countries do have a lot of rewards other than money grubbing. Otherwise we Americans wouldn't go visit them. We're a society of stick-in-the-muds and can't even imagine moving to another country where the environment could easily be far superior to any American city.
I have often wondered why so many who prefer the European way of life are still here.
If I were a Socialist, I am pretty sure I'd have relocated to a Socialist country by now.
No, I wouldn't myself move away from the South Orange Coast -- the closest thing to the Riviera that I know of in climate and beaches in the US. My family lives within twenty minutes of my house (we like each other so haven't moved far away to avoid contact -- my Nephew is living in the house right now). My friends are all in this area -- just dining on the beach at the Surf and Sand hotel in Laguna Beach is enough to confirm I likely won't find a place anywhere else as satisfying for my lifestyle.
<I was hoping you wouldn't think I was suggesting that YOU personally move. It just seems so many people here really hate America. ...all the negative comments, comparisons and criticisms. If I felt that way, I'd just go.>
Sofia wrote:When I say we have the most, and we are the richest, this is what I mean. We are the richest nation.
Nationalized healthcare will change that. We can maintain the money we need for the highest level of public goods--military, law enforcement, Social Security, VA, decent infrastructure, schools and all the things it seems many of you are taking for granted--if we create an environment that lowers healthcare costs.
It is easy to forget just how much better things are here--because we EXPECT it. It was hard won, and it can be lost.
Fine. We're rich and the really rich can afford great healthcare while the poor clean the hospitals and wander into emergency rooms at the last moment.
Do you enjoy being rich in a world filled with the poor or in a country where the poor have to choose between food and medical care?
Let's move on...
I note that several of the public goods you list and esteem are not well-supported by your party. Social Security. VA Benefits. Schools. Public Infrastructure.
These are better things that are expected by American citizens and they do come from a hard-won fight. Who do you think waged that fight? Who did they fight every step of the way?
