33
   

Abortion. Right or Murder?

 
 
HabibUrrehman
 
  0  
Tue 25 Jun, 2019 09:08 am
@tony5732,
Quote:
I don't disagree with you, but being a religious person typically would tell you it is not ok to abort regardless of the logic behind it.


Islam takes middle path when it comes to abortion. If mothers health is in danger than women are allowed to have an abortion. If woman is raped and does not want to give birth to her rapist then she can have abortion. If baby is diagnosed with mental and physical abnormalities then abortion is allowed before 120 days. There are some other scenarios which I have already mentioned in my previous replies on this thread, see link below for details. Abortion is not allowed if the reasons are other than what I stated earlier.

https://able2know.org/topic/323665-7#post-6862862

With that said, we should also examine, what are leading reasons for abortion. Mostly the reasons for abortion are related to financial issues, relationship issues, and interference with career or educational goals. If we live our life according to Divine law, then we will not get into the problem of partner issues. Simple solution is not to have sex before getting married. We should worry about financial issues if we truly believe in God. You and I had no means to survive when we were born but we got our provisions. Fact of the matter is that most of the time we get promotion or pay increase with new baby is born, just one of the way God provides for new born babies. Regarding interference with career or educational goals, if we follow what Islam says then kids can never be an interference in our career goals. In Islam, man is responsible to provide for the family. Women is not responsible to provide for the house hold. This does not mean women can't work or can't get education but what it means is that its husband's responsibility to pay for het wife's education and all other expenses. If women works, husband has no right over her money but woman has right to ask her husband for anything she needs to fulfill her goals. This is missing in our society. Men don't take responsibility and women are supposed to work and raise kids at the same time which makes it hard for women. Anyways, this topic is very big and we can discuss in details may be on a separate thread.

Quote:
For people who do not believe in a "god" or "higher power", the information would have to be played out in a different way. You need a better reason to not kill the baby than "god says",

Your "god" might say a lot of things that I disagree with. Unless you could prove your god is more existant than my god, or that a god exists at all, the point would be mute. Since god cannot be proved than gods argument would only work on that gods followers

You cannot use the logic behind religion to support an argument against someone who doesn't believe in your religion.


Existing of God is easiest one to prove. See link below to one of my posts which have few arguments for existence of God.

https://able2know.org/topic/320763-44#post-6860963

Every religion has a different name for God. No matter what you call it, it is the same God. The only thing which makes it complicated is that every religion has a different view and attributes about God. But again it is very easy to distinguish between right and wrong. If you think about God logically, you will come to one conclusion that it has to be ONE and shall have absolute power and knowledge of everything. With that mind set, read Holy books of all religions and you will see only Islam meets the criteria of a logical God. Again that my research and view and I am not asking you to believe in me. Do your own research and come to your own conclusions.

Best of Luck and peace!





0 Replies
 
HabibUrrehman
 
  0  
Tue 25 Jun, 2019 09:45 am
@glitterbag,
Quote:
How do you know that is true? I suspect this is really more of "wages of sin" notion that people hope happens to women who have abortions


You never know until you experience it. My wife had a miscarriage ( I am calling it miscarriage, some may say it was abortion) last month. Our baby girl was 18 weeks and my wife started having heavy bleeding. Her water was broken for more than 4 weeks ago and there was no amniotic fluid left in the sac. Bleeding made it worse and doctors had to induce labor to save my wife. I already had two boys and it was best in this case for us to save mother. Even though we did not want to have abortion but this was necessary to save my wife. My wife is going through tremendous emotional and physical changes. I myself have not forgotten my baby girl and have cried several times. It is getting better and only because we have something to hold on to. Without Islam, it would have been worse for me and my wife. We know our baby girl will be given permission to intercede for us on the day of Judgement. She has gone ahead of us and is waiting for us to join her in the heavens (For those who don't believe in God and unseen things, existence of heaven and hell can be proven). This incident also make us value our two boys more than ever before.

Anyways, there are also many research papers and articles you can find online which support my statements. Below are some links.

http://www.life.org.nz/suicide/suicidekeyissues/abortion-and-suicide

https://www.liveaction.org/news/studies-show-risk-of-suicide-elevated-in-women-after-abortion/

https://www.webmd.com/depression/news/20051029/abortion-depression-is-there-link#1

As for every other topic, you may be able to find lot of material online which may support abortion. It is up to you who you believe, I have no doubt that abortion does have an impact on the mothers based on my personal experience.
marry96
 
  -4  
Tue 25 Jun, 2019 11:14 am
@lmac2017,
hii
0 Replies
 
hightor
 
  3  
Tue 25 Jun, 2019 11:51 am
@HabibUrrehman,
Quote:
God has programmed us in a way that everyone can tell when they are doing something wrong.

No, our culture supplies that understanding. That's why different cultures have differing concepts of what is and is not moral behavior.
Quote:
Women who have an abortion end up having multiple issues such as PTSD, depression, mental issues, having suicidal thoughts, anxiety disorder, and increased risk of alcohol abuse among many others.

Many woman are thankful that their unplanned, unwanted, unaffordable, life-threatening pregnancies were terminated.
Quote:
Another reason to think why women suffer from the issues mentioned above if abortion is the right things to do?

Women who aren't guilt-ridden don't have those issues.

HabibUrrehman
 
  0  
Tue 25 Jun, 2019 12:20 pm
@hightor,
Quote:
No, our culture supplies that understanding. That's why different cultures have differing concepts of what is and is not moral behavior.


Does our culture puts the love of new born in mother's heart? Does culture tells new born kid how to breastfeed?

Quote:
Many woman are thankful that their unplanned, unwanted, unaffordable, life-threatening pregnancies were terminated.


I can understand life threatening pregnancies but unplanned, unwanted and unaffordable is a different issue. As I mentioned above, it all starts because our society teaches us not to take responsibility. People are afraid to marry because that's a responsibility. People are afraid to have kids because that a responsibility. We would not exist if this is how our parents would think.

Quote:
Women who aren't guilt-ridden don't have those issues.


As I said, you will only know when you will experience it. Most women have these issues and I have provided links above for some studies done to prove it. If you want to disagree, you can but that does not change the facts. One more link below to add to my previous sources:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/somatic-psychology/201010/post-abortion-stress-syndrome-pass-does-it-exist

chai2
 
  1  
Tue 25 Jun, 2019 04:45 pm
@HabibUrrehman,
HabibUrrehman wrote:


You never know until you experience it.

Anyways, there are also many research papers and articles you can find online which support my statements. Below are some links.

http://www.life.org.nz/suicide/suicidekeyissues/abortion-and-suicide

https://www.liveaction.org/news/studies-show-risk-of-suicide-elevated-in-women-after-abortion/

https://www.webmd.com/depression/news/20051029/abortion-depression-is-there-link#1




As to "you don't know unless you've experienced it"......How do you know I, or any other person here hasn't? That is a very condescending thing to say. People do have empathy, and do not have to experience your personal sorrow, or happiness, to know what it feels like. You're not unique.

That's pretty presumptive of you to assume you have some sort of insight unique to the situation.

As to your sources, have you examined what those statistics actually mean? I mean what they translate to in real numbers? Or at least are persented on a consistant basis? You can take any statistic and manipulate them to say whatever you want, or to make it appear more dramatic than it really is.

For instance, I ran some numbers concerning your first link, on the Finland study.

First off, the language is so deceptive. It speaks simultaneously of suicide associated with pregnancy as a percentage of the studied group, and immediately jumps into death per 100,000, then mixes in that teens in all the groups (cause of suicide being pregnant, miscarriage, abortion or actually giving birth), and finally that "Women who had committed a suicide tended to come from lower social classes and were more likely to be unmarried than other women who had had a completed pregnancy."

I mean, it's all over the place. Where is the consistency? Well it's not there because if it were, the numbers would not be so "alarming"

Did a woman kill herself because she had an abortion, or was it because of something else? Perhaps that she was in poverty? Was drug addiction, abuse, or anything else involved? This could be said of any of the groups.

Trying to run the numbers for this, it seems like they counted suicides for all women as 1347 for the given period. If you add up the numbers (having to be derived from percentages as opposed to cases from 100,000, I came up with that about 31% of all women commiting suicide in Finland did so because of something having to do with the process of having a baby.

Seriously? 1/3-ish of all the women killing themselves did it somehow related to their uterus? What else was going on?

I'm not going to go through your other links, but I did look at the Wales numbers....In that one it actually states that "In total, 30 suicides were committed after women gave birth, 29 after an abortion, and 14 after a miscarriage."
So according to this, the same number of women killed themselves after giving birth, as those that aborted. Not very compelling evidence that women aborting are offing themselves.

I have to ask myself, how many of these women would have committed suicide if they had no pregnancy at all? We can't know that, but logically, they would have to be subtracted from the other numbers.
chai2
 
  1  
Tue 25 Jun, 2019 04:53 pm
@HabibUrrehman,
HabibUrrehman wrote:

Quote:
No, our culture supplies that understanding. That's why different cultures have differing concepts of what is and is not moral behavior.


Does our culture puts the love of new born in mother's heart? Does culture tells new born kid how to breastfeed?

What does that have to do with what is moral in a culture? Answer - nothing



As I said, you will only know when you will experience it. Most women have these issues and I have provided links above for some studies done to prove it. If you want to disagree, you can but that does not change the facts. One more link below to add to my previous sources:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/somatic-psychology/201010/post-abortion-stress-syndrome-pass-does-it-exist

But, most women who have had abortions, miscarry, or give birth abolutely do Not have these issues. You let all the slight of hand of mixing up statistics befuddle you. As I pointed out for instance, in the Wales study, just as many women killed themselves who gave birth, as those who had abortions.

And again with the you can't know because you haven't experienced it. How do you know Hightor, or anyone else here hasn't? Because you think that then they would have dealt with it as you did?


chai2
 
  1  
Tue 25 Jun, 2019 04:57 pm
@chai2,
BTW, your Phychology Today link was a real dude.

PT is one of the most massively dumbed down publications I can think of.
Your link information intead provides no hard information. Not even easily skewable stats.

HabibUrrehman
 
  -1  
Tue 25 Jun, 2019 05:05 pm
@chai2,
As I said in my posts that all sort of data can be retrieved from internet. Some may support my position and other may oppose my position. I also admit that I did not spend much time in looking deeply into the sources I provided but it’s not big of a deal since this data is also received from a certain sample and depending on who is part of that sample, results may vary.

For the second point, I did not mean that you will have no clue about the problems related abortion without personal experience. Of course one can have some idea but it can never be the same as personal experience.
chai2
 
  1  
Tue 25 Jun, 2019 05:38 pm
@HabibUrrehman,
HabibUrrehman wrote:

As I said in my posts that all sort of data can be retrieved from internet. Some may support my position and other may oppose my position. I also admit that I did not spend much time in looking deeply into the sources I provided but it’s not big of a deal since this data is also received from a certain sample and depending on who is part of that sample, results may vary.

For the second point, I did not mean that you will have no clue about the problems related abortion without personal experience. Of course one can have some idea but it can never be the same as personal experience.


2nd point first....how do you know I don't have personal experience? Or anyone here you are assuming doesn't?

As to your first point, oh come on. Why would you post links without first examining them to make sure the information is useful? While, and most importantly, using these unexamined, and quite frankly statistics that don't stand up to scrutiny when putting them on a level playing field, using them to support that it is a Fact that something is true.

You make a statement that Women who have an abortion end up having multiple issues such as PTSD, depression, mental issues, having suicidal thoughts, anxiety disorder, and increased risk of alcohol abuse among many others.
That means that all women, as you just say women. You don't even say Some women. Then you supply links with information you did not vett, which in fact did nothing to support your claims? Did you maybe think people would just think "oh man, he supplied links. That's all I need to believe him."

Finally, you then crawfish saying some links support your claim, some don't...Pardon me, but WTF would you supply information, that you haven't examined, to support something as true, when it is empirically not true?

Why should anyone trust or believe anything you have to say? Why are you wasting peoples time when you are apparantly just saying whatever comes to your mind?
roger
 
  1  
Tue 25 Jun, 2019 07:26 pm
@HabibUrrehman,
HabibUrrehman wrote:

I also admit that I did not spend much time in looking deeply into the sources I provided but it’s not big of a deal since this data is also received from a certain sample and depending on who is part of that sample, results may vary.

Boy, howdy.
chai2
 
  1  
Tue 25 Jun, 2019 07:38 pm
@roger,
You said a mouth full roger.

Like if you got a bunch of depressed women, who got pregnant.
roger
 
  1  
Tue 25 Jun, 2019 09:10 pm
@chai2,
Or, maybe they (women) are invited to participate in a survey after leaving the confessional.
0 Replies
 
HabibUrrehman
 
  0  
Tue 25 Jun, 2019 09:52 pm
@chai2,
I did not say or assume that no one here has experienced abortion. It was a general statement that anyone who has experienced abortion may have a better insight than anyone who has not. I shared my thoughts and experience and you can share yours. We can have different experiences and opinions which is okay.
glitterbag
 
  3  
Tue 25 Jun, 2019 10:02 pm
@HabibUrrehman,
just a reminder that I didn't lose children to abortion, two were lost during early pregnancy, one made it 9 months (maybe)..back at that time they didn't always tell you that you were carrying a dead child, even if you were anxious you could no longer feel the baby move...because they didn't want to deal with hysteria or the incredible grief women feel.
0 Replies
 
chai2
 
  1  
Tue 25 Jun, 2019 10:28 pm
@HabibUrrehman,
HabibUrrehman wrote:

I did not say or assume that no one here has experienced abortion. It was a general statement that anyone who has experienced abortion may have a better insight than anyone who has not. I shared my thoughts and experience and you can share yours. We can have different experiences and opinions which is okay.


I did not say abortion. You told a story of your wife having a miscarriage, and that apparantly no one could understand because "it didn't happen to them"

You have no idea, unless directly told, if others here have gone through that.

There is no need for me or anyone to share what has gone on with them. No one gets through this life unschathed. Better to realize all of us know what pain is, and not act like yours is essentially different.


Based on the idea that "it hasn't happened to you, you don't know", then only women who have had abortions can say if it's a right or murder. I mean, how can you say if it is or not unless you've had one?

hightor
 
  2  
Wed 26 Jun, 2019 03:35 am
@HabibUrrehman,
Quote:

Does our culture puts the love of new born in mother's heart?

Yes. Our culture labels this instinctual sensation as "love".
Quote:
Does culture tells new born kid how to breastfeed?

It's a universal mammalian quality, independent of culture...or "god" either, for that matter.
Quote:
People are afraid to marry because that's a responsibility. People are afraid to have kids because that a responsibility.

People can make those decisions free from fear. They are acceptable choices.
Quote:
We would not exist if this is how our parents would think.

So what?
Quote:
If you want to disagree, you can but that does not change the facts.

I can disagree without changing any facts:
Quote:
They concluded at the end of the eight-year study that the most important predictor of emotional well-being in post-abortion women was their well-being before the abortion. Women who had high self-esteem before an abortion would be most likely to have high self-esteem after an abortion, regardless of how many years passed since the abortion.

source
Research also shows anti-choice activism has an effect, i.e. being told that you are a "murderous baby killer" and having to run a gauntlet of sneering, harassment, and intimidation just to secure a safe medical procedure.
0 Replies
 
HabibUrrehman
 
  0  
Wed 26 Jun, 2019 07:57 am
@chai2,
Quote:
As to your sources, have you examined what those statistics actually mean? I mean what they translate to in real numbers? Or at least are persented on a consistant basis? You can take any statistic and manipulate them to say whatever you want, or to make it appear more dramatic than it really is.

For instance, I ran some numbers concerning your first link, on the Finland study.

First off, the language is so deceptive. It speaks simultaneously of suicide associated with pregnancy as a percentage of the studied group, and immediately jumps into death per 100,000, then mixes in that teens in all the groups (cause of suicide being pregnant, miscarriage, abortion or actually giving birth), and finally that "Women who had committed a suicide tended to come from lower social classes and were more likely to be unmarried than other women who had had a completed pregnancy."

I mean, it's all over the place. Where is the consistency? Well it's not there because if it were, the numbers would not be so "alarming"

Did a woman kill herself because she had an abortion, or was it because of something else? Perhaps that she was in poverty? Was drug addiction, abuse, or anything else involved? This could be said of any of the groups.


So yesterday I replied to some of your posts where you questioned my resources. Since I was using my phone and I assumed you would have looked into resources more carefully than me and may be you are right. So I admitted that I have not looked into my resources as deeply and may be whatever conclusion you are mentioning is right. This morning I looked back into those resources and they are very clear and support what I was claiming. Below is the figure which pretty much sums up the results, the suicide rate with induced abortion is higher for all age group except for ages 30-34 which is almost same as miscarriage but still twice compared to normal birth.

https://www.bmj.com/content/bmj/313/7070/1431/F1.medium.gif
0 Replies
 
HabibUrrehman
 
  0  
Wed 26 Jun, 2019 08:18 am
@roger,
So little bit on sampling so that we can understand how statistics and sampling (sub set of population) work. Many times researchers want to know the answers to questions that are large in scope. For example, " How do American feel about putting immigrants kids in concentration camps."

These kinds of questions are huge in the sense that they require us to keep track of millions of individuals.Statistics simplifies these problems by using a technique called sampling. By conducting a statistical sample, our workload can be cut down immensely. Rather than tracking the behaviors of billions or millions, we only need to examine those of thousands or hundreds. As we will see, this simplification comes at a price. If the sample size is not large enough and does not represent the population then the results will be very different.

For example, going back to the example I gave above, if the study includes majority of Trump supporters in the sampling then you can see that majority may be in the favor of mistreatment of immigrant kids in concentration camps. Similarly if the majority is all Democrats then against the results will be overwhelmingly against Trump Administration and his policies. It is for therefore important to apply sample variance when providing results of such surveys and depending on which source you believe as reliable, results of same survey may be different. I hope this explains my point when I said that for abortions we can get studies supporting pro life as well as pro choice.
izzythepush
 
  2  
Wed 26 Jun, 2019 09:55 am
@HabibUrrehman,
It's also the nature of the question. Calling them internment camps instead of concentration camps would get a different response.
 

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