How can a good God allow suffering

The text was tempered with, multiple times in some cases. But amongst the Hebrew prophets, who do you see as immoral, pray tell?

When talking about human beings, it is understood that we are by our very nature, fallible. That is to say we make mistakes and even sin.

When talking about the prophets–beginning with Adam and ending with the seal of the prophets, Muhammad (peace be upon them)–we need to be aware that they are human beings sent by God to guide people.

This matter of guidance necessitates that exemplary character should be a distinguishing attribute of all the Prophets. And that, first, prophets should be human beings. If not, they would not be able to understand the reality of human needs. And second, prophets should be wise, strong, and knowledgeable; so as to be able to lead human beings to the right path. 
As for all the prophets, we need to raise some important points to be able to comprehend the meaning of their infallibility.

1. The infallibility of the prophets comes after receiving the message from Allah Almighty.
2. They make mistakes least among all people. 
3. However, we need to confirm the fact that the prophets did not commit sins. They only made mistakes, as they did not have the intention of disobeying Allah. And their mistakes are only proofs of their humanity. 

Keeping above points in mind, Muslims believe in all prophets and none of them were immoral ( this includes all prophets mentioned in Quran, OT and NT). This is one of main issue I have with OT, they lied so much about prophets to prove they were the worst of the worst and humanity needed God to die for our sins because there was no other way out. In NT these lies have gone to the other extreme to prove Jesus God even though Jesus PBUH was one of the mighty prophet and Messiah.

The OT is a set of pretty old texts of various origins. These texts are in some cases rooted in oral tradition from the bronze age, that is to say, they were sung as poems or songs before they were written down. Some, like Genesis, are strickingly similar to the Sumerian myths and probably originate from them. Others eg some psalms have Canaanite origins. Ie pagan texts, reworked and reinterpreted as monotheist.

It's messy but it's what we got.

It is true and I believe the biggest benefit of OT is that it leads to truth. For many Christians and Jews it is start of their real spiritual journey and once they find out the contradictions in old and new testaments, they start search for truth. It may take several years but if a person is sincere, they will eventually find answer to all the questions they may have. This journey may differ from person to person and ending may also differ from person to person depending on how sincere they are and how sincerely they have been asking God to lead them to truth.

Or maybe it just leads them to another set of questions...

I find scripture interesting from a history of ideas view point. I treat the Quran like any other of these texts. Not necessarily inspired by a god in my view, but certainly inspired by something. Like some poets can be inspired, or some politicians, some philosophers, prophets can be inspired too. Where this inspiration comes from remains an open question for me.

If you believe in God, then keep praying to God and He will lead you to truth. As I said, it is a journey and everyone goes through it. It does lead to several questions and all questions will be answered when you find the truth and when you are ready to accept it.

I don't believe in God.

That is the one conclusion which anyone can arrive to. I have been giving my arguments on this subject and will be happy to prove that God exists and there is only ONE God. But I will first give you a chance to prove that God does not exist or whatever believe you have just state that and provide a logical reasoning for your belief system.

As i already explained, you cannot prove anything about gods because your logic does not necessarily apply to them. So don't waste your time. Likewise, no human being can possibly prove that gods don't exist, so I'm not going to try.

I am not trying to reason with you, just trying to help.

There is a reason you are born as human, not a slug. God has given us intelligence and free will for a reason, so use it. Anyways, I tried and I am sure you are trying as well. Don't give up and keep searching for truth with sincere heart.

All the best.

Thanks but I don't particularly need help on this.

Thank you for the courtesy of allowing me to go first.

I cannot prove that god does not exist.

Your turn.

Please proceed to prove that god exists.

There are several arguments which can be given to prove the existence of ONE God. I will focus on three arguments namely design argument, moral argument, and Cosmological argument.

Design argument

Let me start when an example. Suppose someone finding a watch in a desert and upon opening it, they marvel at the intricate wiring and design. One can think two scenarios. One, that the watch came into existence by accident. Second, there is someone who created this watch. We all know that the first assumption is laughable. Why, the intricate design tells us that there is someone who created this watch. Now lets take this simple example and apply that on a much larger scale which is our world or universe. We see very complicate design in anything that exists around us. Even the creation of human beings has a certain design in it. For example every human being has unique finger prints. Can we say that all this is accidental? How could this intricate and complicated world be brought into existence by an ‘accident?’ A lot of care and attention would be required. Therefore, nothing, including the universe, is brought into existence by accident.

I am using more examples as evidence:

Humans constantly try to change their appearance, whether it is through contact lenses, makeup, fake eyelashes or face lifts, the fact remains that underneath all of that, they still look the same. No one can change their appearance, even through surgery, as the individual cells and DNA of a human being cannot be altered to switch to another specific job. For example, humans can dye their hair another color, such as blonde to brown, but the actual DNA cannot be altered to naturally create brown hair.

A plant cannot grow on its’ own. People give it food and water, but where does the food and water come from? They are both made on Earth but what makes them grow? Where do the nutrients and minerals required come from? Again and again, the source can be questioned. What makes the leaves green? Chlorophyll and sunlight. But where does the sunlight come from? The Sun. How did the Sun come into existence? The Big Bang Theory? What triggered the explosion?

Similarly, the Sun and Moon are kept at the correct distance from the Earth to let humans survive. What keeps them at that distance? Gravity? Who created Gravity? What causes the combustions on the surface of the Sun? Muslims believe that the Designer of everything is Allah, who is the creator and controller of the Universe.

Human beings are another example. We grow from just a blood clot into full adults with various characteristics. Proteins make us grow, but where do the proteins come from? What is the First Cause? Muslims believe this to be Allah. Also, humans breathe mechanically and automatically. If, even for a minute, we concentrated our breathing and tried to breathe, it would become difficult. Muslims believe Allah has made us this way.

Moral argument

Many times in our life, we think that ‘I ought to do this’ or ‘this is wrong.’ This is because of our conscience. Most of the time, we know what is right, yet we don’t do it. Muslims believe that all rights and wrongs come from one source: Allah who has already programmed in ever human to distinguish between the right and wrong. If we don’t follow those rights or wrongs, it is our choice and free will kicking in. Therefore, the presence of good and bad and of our conscience suggests that there is a higher power.

Cosmological argument

Science agrees that it is impossible for matter to create itself. Everything has a cause. Man, the external agency, creates a pen. Global Warming is caused by pollution and the upset of the Greenhouse Effect. A person dies because of a cause. So if everything has a cause, there must have been a First Cause without a cause, which must be Allah/God.

For example if a person has a black eye, then people know that someone has hit you, and therefore there must have been a cause/reason for them hitting you. Even humans have a cause, which are our parents. There is no such thing as an accident. The sperm fertilized the egg to produce the offspring. Whether intentional or unintentional, the fact remains that there was still a cause. Let me also discuss Big Bang theory and evolution by natural selection as these theories are related and often discussion in response to Cosmological argument.

Big Bang Theory:

Science explains the Origin of the Universe through the ‘Big Bang’ Theory. This states that the whole Universe is expanding and that it all started billions of years ago, in one place, with a huge explosion. Evidence for the Big Bang Explosion has been obtained by the detection of Microwaves, which were produced as a by-product of the event, according to Science. Also, evidence for the expansion has been obtained by the measurement of ‘Red-Shift.’ If a source of Light moves away from us, the wavelengths of the light in its spectrum are longer than if the source was not moving. For light, this is known as ‘Red-Shift’, as the wavelengths are ‘shifted’ towards the red end of the spectrum.

According to the Big Bang Theory an ‘explosion’ created the Universe. However there is not enough evidence and Science is unable to explain who provided the basic ingredients for it, or what triggered the explosion. For example, there are millions of fireworks, ammunition and bombs present in the world. But none of these go off spontaneously or without a detonating mechanism. The factors that have to be present are: Firstly, the correct ingredients in correct amounts in a suitable environment and Secondly, somebody to set off the explosion whether it be by the means of a matchstick, or the hammer of a pistol or by setting off some electric spark. Science explains none of these. It is possible that there was an explosion, but then who set it off or who created the Universe? Muslims believe it was Allah/God.

In fact, Science states that for any theory or scientific argument to have value, it must be reproducible – ‘testable, demonstrable’. If the Big Bang Theory was indeed the truth, then surely Scientists should be able to reproduce the same phenomenon in the laboratory? Some Scientists argue that the energy that was unleashed with the Big Bang was such that they do not have access to. However, if that is true, then where did the tremendous energy originate?

Quran and Muslims however do agree with parts of Big Bang theory and the fact that universe is expanding. In fact, these facts are established by science only in last 100 years but Quran mentioned those 1400 years ago

I can provide Quranic references to expanding universe and big bang theory if you need to look at those.

Evolution by Natural Selection:

Science believes in the Theory of Evolution by Natural Selection, founded by Charles Darwin. He made four observations: 1) All living things produce far more offspring than actually survive to adulthood. 2) In spite of this, population sizes remain fairly constant, all things being equal. 3) There is variation in members of the same species. 4) Characteristics can be passed on from one generation to the next.

Charles Darwin used these observations to conclude that all organisms were involved in a struggle for survival in which only the best-adapted organisms would survive, reproduce and pass on their characteristics, thus ‘Evolution by Natural Selection.’

Natural Selection means that the species adapted to the changes in the environment by a change in form and structure, changes which they then passed on to succeeding generations, enabling them to survive: while those species which did not adapt, became extinct.

The classic example is that of the Dinosaurs, which could not compete with smaller, more agile animals, which had miraculously evolved, thus the bigger, more slower animals became extinct, whilst the smaller, nimbler animals survived. Also, during the course of evolution, what was redundant disappeared, like tails and claws, being replaced with tail-less species with hands, which could hold, the final result being Man.

However, there are no fossils to directly link the descent of man from the same ancestor as apes and there is a constant search for what is termed as the ‘Missing Link.’ Also, there are no fossils showing definite mid steps in the transition from ape to Man. Scientists have failed to produce any new species of life in their laboratory by controlling and changing the environment. Famous examples, are those of Richard Goldschmidt and experiments on fruit flies, which have remained unsuccessful.

There are many holes in the Theory of Evolution. For example, if the Theory of Evolution were true, the nipples of male human beings would have disappeared because of inactivity thousands of years ago. However, they still remain today.

Again besides many holes in science about evolution, Muslims, as a whole, believe in evolution; there is no controversy there. The contention within Islam is the Creation of Man. Whilst Islam can accept evolution as a scientific fact, the reconciliation of the status of humanity as God’s vicegerent and the idea that humanity are primates is difficult for some. The verses of the Qur’an are also ambiguous on this matter in that they can be understood either way. Either Adam was Created separately and did not evolve, or the Creation story is allegorical, or this Creation is unique to Adam. Also, Adam could be the first man for homo sapien and other hominids evolved, or many variations on the theme. In truth there has not been any real discourse in this by both jurists and Muslim scientists. In short, Muslims do not all agree, and there is no real consensus either way.

I mentioned Quran and modern science in my response above. Muslims don't shy away from established scientific facts because they only validate that statements in Quran are correct and these have to be correct if Quran is from God. Science and Quran is a very vast subject and we can discuss this separately or you can follow my posts on this topic.

There was a universal issue raised in the Garden of Eden. Genesis chapter 3:1-6, shows that Satan the Devil challenged God's Sovereignty or right to rule over humans. And Satan made it appear that God was wasn't telling Adam and Eve the truth about a particular tree in the Garden of Eden, he made it appear okay to eat fruit from the "tree of the knowledge of good and bad", even though God had told them not to eat from that tree. (Genesis 2:15-17).

Satan in essence told Eve that she didn't need God's guidance and direction and that she could be her "own man" so to speak. As a result she partook of the fruit and even persuaded her husband Adam to eat the fruit which God had forbid them not to eat (Genesis 3:1-6).

Because of Adam and Eve's gross disobedience, all mankind is suffering today (Romans 5:12)..

Time would be needed to prove to Satan's implications that humans don't need God's guidance and direction and to prove Satan the vicious liar that he is.
As it stands now, humans have tried all forms of government and rulerships, but have not shown that they don't need God's direction and help. We can see beyond a shadow of a doubt mankind needs God's help and guidance. The Bible even says that man cannot even direct his own step without God in one's life (Jeremiah 10:23).

Soon all suffering will end when God's heavenly based Kingdom/Government ruled by God's appointed King and Son Jesus Christ takes full control of earth's affairs (Revelation 21:3-5, Psalm 37:10-11, Psalm 37:29, Isaiah 11:9, Acts 24:15).

Moreso, God was re-interpreted as an ego-driven person who lies in order to maintain power over others and subjugate them by preventing them from gaining power that he controls.



By lying in order to turn A&E against God, the serpent tricks them into self-destruction by eating a fruit that they were warned would in fact kill them.

This is described more succinctly in Isaiah 5:20


Complex reversals can sow seeds of confusion that scramble one's moral compass.


Sin 'goes forth and multiplies' like everything else in the creation; so sin is like a war that escalates and gains an inertia that makes it difficult to stop/de-escalate. Ceasefires are taken as weakness and taken advantage of with futher attacks, just as forgiveness can be taken as weakness and taken advantage of as an opportunity for further sin/abuse. So while there is a path out of sin, it is not possible to stop sin in the world due to its momentum. We can only seek deliverance/salvation from it and pray for God's will to be "done on Earth as it is in Heaven," so that we can experience joy/hope in progress in virtue (out of sin).


Nothing good or true can be so except because goodness and truth exist as immutable potentialities within the creation. Otherwise put, there can exist no cloud without a silver lining, so to speak. It's built into the OS, like the rainbow was built into the aftermath of Noah's flood as a symbol of God's forgiveness of humans despite our sinful nature.

This theme of goodness emerging out of trouble shows up repeatedly in Bible stories. Job ultimately prospers, Isaac's life is spared, Jesus is resurrected and ascends to heaven, etc.

Once we get tuned into 'the good news,' it becomes clear that no matter how much bad occurs, good will ultimately emerge from it. Yen-yang philosophy might advance a counter-claim that evil also always re-emerges from good, but that doesn't contradict the fundamental Biblical revelation that sin emerged within the Garden of Eden, pride and the will to kill emerged from doing right by God in the story of Cain and Able, etc.

So let me ask you guys, do you really think God didn't know they would (perhaps even want them to) eat of that tree?

How do you square your belief with his presumed omniscience?

It is an excellent question. I think probably a better question would be that why God is telling this story to us. I mean we have no means to know this story unless it is told by God himself.

To find the answer, I will go back to Quran. This story has been repeated several times in Quran. This shows that Allah wants us to reflect on this story because it is key to understand our existence on this earth and our relationship to God.

I will start by quoting verses from Quran related to story of Adam and Eve and then give my interpretation of those verses inshallah.
Allah The Almighty says in the Quran:







Summary of my reflection points on story of Adam and Eve mentioned in Quran:

Did Allah already know that Adam will eat from this tree? Of course He did.
Did Allah forced Adam and Eve to eat from the tree? No, He did not. Adam and Eve were given a free will just like we have.

Did Quran say that it was Eve's fault? No, it says it was fault of both Eve and Adam.

Allah has also made it clear to Adam that Iblis was his enemy when Iblis refused to prostrate to Adam.

Adam PBUH made a mistake but what did he do? He repented.

What did Iblis do? He asked why Allah created Adam from clay and made Adam superior over him?

He questioned Allah's wisdom and showed arrogance.

Allah forgave Adam PBUH when he repented and outcaste Iblis for his arrogance.

Allah also told Adam that human beings will receive guidance from God and whoever follows Allah's guidance will be successful and whoever does not follow Allah's guidance will be in hell fire forever.

How does this apply to us? Why did Allah mention this story in Quran. Is it only for Adam and Eve or does this apply to us as well.

All wants to tell us few things through this story:

1. When Allah forbids Adam PBUH and tells him not to eat from the forbidden tree, He the Almighty wants to tell us that our life is a test. He will tell us to do certain things and He will also tell us not to do certain things so that He can see who will obey Him and who will not.

2. Allah also tell us through this story that our biggest enemy is Satan. Just like He deceived Adam and Eve and convinced them to do what was forbidden, Satan will deceive us as well.

3. Allah will send down guidance and those who will follow the guidance will be able to recognize their enemy and Allah will help them to get back to paradise. Allah has sent down guidance throughout human history but it was always for a particular nation and tribe. Torah and Injil were sent to Jews ( people of Israel) and it was never for entire humanity. Quran came down as final revelation, it corrected what was corrupted by people who were previously given guidance and since this was a final guidance and is for entire humanity it has been preserved.

4. Both Adam and Eve were equally guilty of eating from the forbidden tree. This shown men and women are equal. In the sight of Allah all are equal and superior in the eyes of Allah is only one who is more God conscious.

5. For Allah it is easy to forgive. All one needs is to ask for forgiveness. Adam PBUH made a mistake and asked for forgiveness and he was forgiven. Those who think that only way for salvation is through Jesus are delusional and misguided by Satan. God was one throughout human history and one can see that God's triune nature is only the product of Christianity. Quran came to remove these false beliefs and revived not only the absolute oneness of God but also the Divine law.

6. One can choose the path of Iblis who questioned Allah's wisdom and refused to obey Allah's command. In that case, one should know that they have no place in heaven and will company Satan in the hell fire.

7. This last concept is very important to understand. Allah already knows what has happened in the past, what is happening right now and what will happen in future. He also knows who will be His obedient servants and who will refuse to obey His guidance. So what is the point of creating us then? Just like we asked what was the point of creating Adam and telling Him not to eat from the tree when Allah already knew that Adam will end up eating from that tree?
Remember Allah did not force Adam. Adam was given a free will and Adam was also told what will be the consequences if he will end up eating from that tree. Similarly we have free will do whatever we want to do, we are also told what will happen if we disobey Allah. We are also told what sort of punishments will be in hell fire. This is not to scare anyone but it is from the mercy of Allah that He is telling us about things which are unseen. One can save him/her by believing in it or they know what future holds.

Going back to my question that why would Allah create us if He already know about our fate. This is because even though Allah knows, we don't know our ending. If Allah put us in heaven and few of us in hell without testing on this earth then those in hell will question Allah that why are they in the hell fire? Allah tell us in Quran that on the Day of Judgement, no one will question the verdict given by Allah. Our own body parts will be a witness of what we did, angels are unseen but they are writing whatever we are doing. The earth will be witness that so and so stood on me to do this crime. There will be so much proof that we will not be able to say a single word. I don't think it is very hard to imagine in our times when video surveillance and audio recording is very common. If human beings can create such a sophisticated system, can't our creator record our each and every action?

May Allah help us to understand Quran and help us to apply what we read in Quran in our lives! Ameen!

I appreciate your POV generally. I don't think about things exactly the same as you, but I see virtue and wisdom in your thinking. One thing you said, I want to respond to, however:

I think when it says that God told Adam not to eat of the tree, that he would die; it wasn't merely a test of obedience. I think this is an observation about how truth works more generally; i.e. if you gain true foresight about a danger and you fail to heed that foresight/forewarning, then you will be subject to the effects of the danger you subjected yourself to.

Put another way: if your parent knew that a certain fruit from a certain tree was truly poisonous, and you disregarded the warning and ate the fruit out of defiance or misunderstanding or whatever other reason, the fruit would still poison you regardless. It's not that your father decided you should be put to death for disobeying his warning; you just killed yourself by failing to protect yourself by heeding his warning.

In the case of God, truth is true because it is. If you know, for whatever reason, that a certain fruit is poisonous, that true knowledge provides accurate foresight about what will happen, i.e. what the natural consequences are, for eating that fruit. You could receive the revelation of true foresight from whatever source, e.g. a parent, something you overhear, your mind putting two and two together to make four, etc. but whatever path the truth takes to reach you, it is true because it cannot be otherwise.

So whenever we receive such true foresight by whatever means, we can attribute that to God, just as God warned A&E in the garden that they would surely die if they ate the fruit.

This is very relevant today when we have received foresight about the climate changing due to the ways that we are living on Earth, and we cannot go into the future and test our foresight. We have to determine whether our foresight about climate change is true or some kind of satanic trick to mislead us. If we listen to the serpent, he tells Eve that God's warning is a trick to mislead them; but there will be some people who claim that climate change warnings are like the serpent trying to deceive, while others will say they are true warnings about an actual future that will happen if we don't heed the warning and submit to a correct way to use our industrial powers.

It reminds me of Isaiah 5:20

The challenge is always to distinguish good from evil, right from wrong, and truth from deception.

I agree for most part. Just a correction that Quran tells Adam PBUH to stay away from a tree and did not say that He will die if He will eat from it.

Second, I understand climate change and everything else but I believe that everything happens the way Allah has planned. Allah described in the Quran that when the hour will be near, the sea level will increase and it’s happening today. God also told that on day of judgement oceans will turn into fire and if we think, water is made of hydrogen ( highly explosive) and oxygen which helps the fire. Anyways, these are signs mentioned in the Quran for those who reflect.

They're also in the book of revelations and Nostradamus had a few things to say too. Not only that the day of judgement is always at hand. Nobody ever looks at the prophetic works and calculates the end of days to be thousands of years hence, it's always just around the corner.