Abortion. Right or Murder?

Reply Thu 11 Jul, 2019 12:44 pm
We were talking about the signs so don't you see how the composition of air is just so perfect that we human can breath and live easily.

Classic chicken/egg paradox — the obvious answer is that the atmosphere was already here and life forms evolved to make use of it.

who created that atmosphere to such a precision?

Don't you see the sun rises from East every day ( Why not West or any other direction).

No, the sun doesn't "rise in the east" — you're anthropomorphizing the natural world. The sun is stationary and the counter clockwise rotation of the earth on its axis gives the appearance that the sun is "rising".

First of all you missed the point. I want to show that someone has control over every thing including sun. Second to prove your point you just went back few centuries when people used to believe that Sun is stationary. Today it proven that everything is rotating in its own orbit including sun. Do some research. See a link below from Astronomy journal.


Don't you see how moon changes its stages.

No, we are simply observing it in different stages of its 28 day cycle of rotation. The moon stays the same.
How are you created and from what are you created?

Partially true but again point is that earth revolves around its own orbit and someone is controlling that rotation. A higher power...

The sun, the moon, galaxies, stars everything is a constant reminder.

How are you created and from what are you created?

Star dust, which we call "matter", exists throughout the universe. On our planet the particular chemistry allowed for the gradual development of complex materials such as amino acids. The building blocks of life originated in chemical reactions combined with electrical current and radiation.

You are created from sperm ( filthy water which no one even want to touch). You did not even created those sperms. In short we are created from nothing. For us to create anything we need material but God does not need anything to create. Now look at the stages you go through in the womb of your mother, after you were born and when you got to your peak in youth. How did you grow? Then look at your old age, how did you start getting weak? All these are signs that human being are weak and depend on their creator. This also shows that life on this earth is not permanent. If you don't agree, try to run away from your death if you can. No one has ever succeeded and you are not any exception.

Is this all accidental?

Not entirely because the behavior of physical particles and chemical reactions occur in predictable ways. But the fact that our planet supports any particular form of life is clearly accidental. What "purpose" would it serve?

Predictable way? Science says it was big bang ( a massive explosion) and nothing comes to an order after an explosion.
Besides for physical and chemical laws to take place, there has to be some one who can impose those laws on these particles just like the force of gravity. Did it came into existence by itself?

Reply Thu 11 Jul, 2019 02:00 pm
Science agrees that it is impossible for matter to create itself. Everything has a cause. Man, the external agency, creates a cell phone. If someone finds a cell phone in desert and starts thinking that it came into being by itself, we will laugh at such a claim because we know it is created due to its specific design features and because cell phone can't create itself.

Global Warming is caused by pollution and the upset of the Greenhouse Effect. A person dies because of a cause. So if everything has a cause, there must have been a First Cause without a cause, which must be Allah/God.

If a person has a black eye, then people know that someone has hit you, and therefore there must have been a cause/reason for them hitting you. Even humans have a cause, which are our parents. There is no such thing as an accident. The sperm fertilized the egg to produce the offspring. Whether intentional or unintentional, the fact remains that there was still a cause.

Humen should be impressed by their natural surroundings. It is all carefully and systematically designed. For example, every fingerprint is unique.

A plant cannot grow on its’ own. People give it food and water, but where does the food and water come from? They are both made on Earth but what makes them grow? Where do the nutrients and minerals required come from? Again and again, the source can be questioned. What makes the leaves green? Chlorophyll and sunlight. But where does the sunlight come from? The Sun. How did the Sun come into existence? The Big Bang Theory? What triggered the explosion?

Similarly, the Sun and Moon are kept at the correct distance from the Earth to let humans survive. What keeps them at that distance? Gravity? Who created Gravity? What causes the combustions on the surface of the Sun?

Human beings are another example. We grow from just a blood clot into full adults with various characteristics. Proteins make us grow, but where do the proteins come from? What is the First Cause? Muslims believe this to be Allah. Also, humans breathe mechanically and automatically. If, even for a minute, we concentrated our breathing and tried to breathe, it would become difficult. Muslims believe Allah has made us this way.

Existence of God can also be confirmed by using moral argument. I have written a whole post on this few weeks ago and you can read that one for details. Many times in our life, we think that ‘I ought to do this’ or ‘this is wrong.’ This is because of our conscience. Most of the time, we know what is right, yet we don’t do it. If we don’t follow those rights or wrongs, it is our choice and free will kicking in. Therefore, the presence of good and bad and of our conscience suggests that there is a higher power.

Lastly we can never come on consensus on definition of good. For example, a society may have some laws to punish for a certain act such steal or robbing. It is generally consider as a bad thing but if it benefits someone, how would you convince that person that it is a bad thing. Especially if that person is very powerful politically and physically and law enforcement agencies are under this guy who believes stealing is good. You can never convince this person unless this person truly believes in life after death and believes in hell and paradise. We may all have different definitions of good and bad depending on what benefits us but God has already defined that for us because He is our creator and knows what's best for us as an individual and as a society.

This whole argument to deny existence of God is to have an excuse not to follow the guidelines set by our creator but we are happy to follow guidelines set by human beings. No wonder, humanity as a whole is in deep mess.
Fil Albuquerque
Reply Thu 11 Jul, 2019 02:33 pm
What caused God? Don't tell me I know...
So why not Nature is eternal and cyclic instead?
(See fractals in nature on youtube)
There are several ways to conclude "God" does not have a mind.
If it is eternal and lives outside of spacetime it cannot compute thoughts or actions. It would be like a stone.
Moreover, why think when you know everything? Thinking is for problem-solving! Obviously, if you know everything you don't need to continue thinking and just like a calculator who has ended a calculus problem you stop and halt.
At best "God" is like an abstract mathematical object, a Universal wave function frozen with the all set of possible computations, and if you understood what it is you would run from it and go mad...
Your anthropocentric little God is an exercise in intellectual stupidity and self-deceiving convenient wishful thinking.
Its well-known Humans need stories, narratives, and each tribe has its own set of stories about things that trouble us, perhaps because deep down we know we are small, insignificant, and just like any other animal subject to extinction as a species. I could go on for hours about stuff like Heaven and Hell and how they don't make sense because there is no value in flat line places, but it seems clear to me you wouldn't understand it at all, so I will stop here...

PS - I think it is important to say that I still respect your mythology. Unlike many atheists in the US, I am tolerant of different cultures, different narratives, and respect the people's need to believe whatever it is they believe.
Further, I acknowledge at some level, up or down, believing is embedded in every one of us. Have a nice day!
Reply Thu 11 Jul, 2019 03:00 pm
who created that atmosphere to such a precision?

No one "created" the atmosphere; its composition has changed over billions of years. Life on earth developed to take advantage of the existing atmosphere; it wasn't "created" for human beings.

I want to show that someone has control over every thing including sun. Second to prove your point you just went back few centuries when people used to believe that Sun is stationary.

I'm very well aware that the sun rotates and revolves within our galaxy. But you were talking from an earthly perspective and I was explaining that, no, the sun doesn't "rise", the earth rotates into the path of sunlight.

Partially true but again point is that earth revolves around its own orbit and someone is controlling that rotation. A higher power...

Earth inherited its rotation from the spinning movement of the accretion disk, or formation of material moving around a large object, from which the solar system was formed.

The formation of the solar system occurred 4.6 billion years ago when a huge cloud of dust and gas began to collapse under the weight of its own gravity. As it collapsed, the early solar system began to flatten out, forming a large spinning accretion disk. The planets were formed as material within this disk gathered closer together. The Earth continues to spin upon its axis because there are no outside forces acting to stop its rotation.


You are created from sperm ( filthy water which no one even want to touch).

Your whole description here is wrong; on many levels.

Predictable way? Science says it was big bang ( a massive explosion) and nothing comes to an order after an explosion.

Energy and particles in explosions are still subject to the basic laws of physics and can be measured and their course plotted.

Did it came into existence by itself?

Did your "higher power" come into existence by itself?
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Reply Thu 11 Jul, 2019 03:24 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
The question is playing with the terms because one of the alternative  definitions of the word "God" is that he is self-sufficient, non-created, who has no beginning. So, it is like asking "who created the non-created"!. It is also like asking "Who was the father of Adam?", "How can I make sugar sweet?" the question assumption itself is wrong.

One of the good answers is the cosmological argument:
A: Everything has a start has a cause.
B: The universe had a start.
So,  The universe had a cause

If we assume infinite causes then the universe would not exist until now. However, it has to stop to the first non-caused cause.

Another argument is that, we should not assume the similarity between the designer property and the design property.
Fil Albuquerque
Reply Thu 11 Jul, 2019 03:56 pm
I am familiar with the Cosmological argument for more than 20 years now...
You can use a cyclic model with a finite fractal pattern of information and apply the same principle to the Universe, you don't need a God.
Finally please address my other points if you want an open honest intellectual debate. If you are just preaching I am not interested.
Fil Albuquerque
Reply Thu 11 Jul, 2019 05:25 pm
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Reply Fri 12 Jul, 2019 08:48 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
I am not here for preaching and is always open to a sincere and logical argument. Human beings are unique because we are blessed with free will and intellect. We can analyze things at our own and no one can force their ideas on anyone. I always take good things from anyone with any ideology and try to convey my message with logic and respect.

In your previous post I did not see any question which I need to answer other than who created God and I have already answered that. To continue our dialogue, can you answer few question below for me:

1. How Do You Determine What’s Right & What’s Wrong?
I gave example in my previous post that stealing is generally considered bad. But if it benefits a person who is also extremely powerful and all law enforcement agencies are under him, how do you convince him that stealing is bad?

2. How Do You Deal With Guilt & Sin in Your Life?
No matter what moral beliefs we may have, all people have felt guilt in their life. Every person including the atheist has felt that they have done wrong in their life and may have felt guilt or remorse or depression as a result. I have mentioned this in one of my post in this thread and used this argument to prove that there is a higher power who is built consciousness within every human being to differentiate between good and bad. Our conscious constantly reminds us when we do something wrong and many people instead of listening to their consciousness use drugs and alcohol to shut off this alarm system. Just like in case of a fire alarm we should run away from source of fire instead of shutting off the fire alarm; we should listen to our consciousness and keep ourselves away from things which result is guilt.
The question however is: How do atheists deal with guilt and sin in their life? What do atheists do to remove guilt or sin in their hearts?
3. Do You Act According To What You Believe or According To What You Lack In Belief?
If atheism is simply a lack in belief in God, then do atheists act according to what they believe in – or do they act according to their lack of belief.
Everyone BELIEVES in something or someone. Our beliefs drive us. What we believe in affects our life and ultimately our destiny.
The truth is – we don’t have to see something in order to believe in it. All humans have the ability to believe.
Atheists have NO EVIDENCE that non-life can create life but yet they BELIEVE it.
Atheists have NO EVIDENCE as to HOW the universe was created yet they BELIEVE their theories.
Atheists have NO EVIDENCE dinosaurs turned into birds but yet they BELIEVE it.
Therefore the atheist does not behave according to what he lacks belief in – but he behaves according to what he believes in even if that belief is wrong.
The source of our faith however should not be our own intelligence – but the source of our faith should be God and His word.
True faith does not come by hearing the word of man but true faith comes by hearing the word of God.
4. Can You Prove HOW the Universe Was Created?
There is no evidence pertaining to the evolutionist explanation for origin of life. All evolutionist explanations for the origin of life and the creation of the universe remain merely as theories, presumptions and hypothesis. The reason is because there is no scientific proof that for example, life may have evolved from non-life or that life resulted due to a “big bang”.
Therefore atheists cannot prove how the universe was created. It actually takes faith to believe some of the theories that evolutionists have suggested.
5. Can You Prove That God Does Not Exist?
When asked this question atheists argue that it’s not up to them to provide evidence for proof of God. The problem however with their argument is that if they claim God doesn’t exist then they should provide the evidence.
If atheists have never visited every planet; or if they have never been to every part of the universe; or if they have never seen every star in outer space – then how can they prove that God does not exist?
Atheism in itself is merely a CLAIM – it is NOT a fact.
Atheism is NOT merely a lack of belief – it is an NONFACTUAL CLAIM that God does not exist because there is no proof that He doesn’t exist.
6. Do You Know Where You’re Going When You Die?
The atheist cannot prove that heaven and hell does not exist. However, what a tragic day it will be when the atheist discovers the existence of hell and heaven because there is no going back and there is no second chance.
Does heaven and hell exist? Yes these places do and logically we can prove that. One of the question I asked above is how you define good and bad. The answer to that question is linked to this question. One more thing you can think upon is the justice system. If a person kill 5 million people and never get caught and dies, do you think justice is done? Even if he is caught, he may be sentenced for life. Is that the justice to take his life at the cost of 5 million innocent lives?

God has put eternity in our hearts. This means that in our mind or soul God has placed within us a spiritual longing or desire for eternal fulfillment inside of us; God has put that sense inside us that there is more to life than the mere physical and natural things that we touch and see.
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Reply Thu 1 Aug, 2019 11:58 pm
Well, If you are a religious person it may sure you can consider as it murder. By the way, For future safety go to Vasectomy treatment. Now, The process fully secured and painless.
Reply Fri 2 Aug, 2019 12:27 am
Somehow, I just don't feel right sending a woman thinking about abortion to a doctor for a vasectomy.
Reply Fri 2 Aug, 2019 12:59 am
That doesn't sound right to me either.
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Reply Mon 20 Jan, 2020 02:25 am
I think that abortion in the first weeks isn't a murder. It's not a child yet, ut has no personality. Besides, sometimes abortion can save the life of the mother to be.
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Reply Sat 28 Mar, 2020 08:14 pm

This is fascinating - it's like we're acting in circles (abortion is right). But it can at the same time be criminal and murder and rape (that kind of type of crime). Very interesting.

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