16
   

Toddlers Have Already Shot 23 People This Year And It’s Only May

 
 
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 10 May, 2016 03:26 pm
@Blickers,
Blickers wrote:
The Mises Institute wants us to make an exception for murder because they are against gun control. It is a cut and dried attempt to bias the numbers on their part.

They are objecting to biased comparisons. They would not have any objection to non-biased numbers.


Blickers wrote:
As for having poverty stricken areas, so do most countries. The point is, ON AVERAGE, the US is one of the wealthiest countries in the world. 56% of our Food Stamp recipients, who are the bottom seventh of the country income wise, drive their car to buy their food.

While being fed is certainly better than being hungry, it isn't enough. People don't want to be shuffled off to some hidden neighborhood and told to live a meaningless existence until they die unnoticed by the world. If the only way the people in these neighborhoods can achieve something in their life is by becoming a successful criminal, then anyone who wants to make something of themselves will choose a life of crime.

We need to offer the poor more than subsistence. We need to offer them hope and opportunity as well.
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 May, 2016 03:37 pm
I think we have to outlaw babies. Not because they grow to be gun toting toddlers but because babies kill women.
Quote:
About 1,000 women across the country die each year from pregnancy-related complications, a rate of 14.5 deaths per 100,000 live births in 2007, the most recent data available from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.
Blickers
 
  4  
Reply Tue 10 May, 2016 07:08 pm
@oralloy,
Quote oralloy:
Quote:
They are objecting to biased comparisons. They would not have any objection to non-biased numbers.

No, the Mises Institute objects to unbiased numbers, and wants them biased to suit their agenda. They want the murder rate in the US to be compared not to all the other developed countries, which is how we measure health care, education, life expectancy, and everything else. They want us to be compared to all the other countries in the world, including those many countries where people only live to 55 if they are lucky and see a doctor perhaps three times in their lives. Then the murder rate for the USA doesn't look that bad.

Quote oralloy:
Quote:
We need to offer the poor more than subsistence. We need to offer them hope and opportunity as well.

Perhaps, but my point is that the people we consider the poorest seventh of the country are driving their cars and have a life that the "middle class" in quite a few countries don't have. If we want to compare ourselves, we should, (and we do), normally compare ourselves to places like Canada, the UK, and other wealthy countries where people live relatively long lives and most people have a high standard of living like ours. The Mises Institute wants to change that for murder statistics, so instead of comparing ourselves to other nations who live like us, we compare ourselves to poor nations where people live with their backs perpetually against the wall. That's bias.
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Tue 10 May, 2016 07:30 pm
@Blickers,
Blickers wrote:
No, the Mises Institute objects to unbiased numbers, and wants them biased to suit their agenda.

The numbers that this institute objects to are biased to the point of being fraudulent.


Blickers wrote:
They want the murder rate in the US to be compared not to all the other developed countries, which is how we measure health care, education, life expectancy, and everything else.

That is because countries are being labeled "developed" not based on their level of development, but based on how convenient their homicide stats are for anti-gun propaganda. Further, some developed countries with a low homicide rate actually have lots of privately owned guns, but they are presented as countries with few such guns.


Blickers wrote:
The Mises Institute wants to change that for murder statistics, so instead of comparing ourselves to other nations who live like us, we compare ourselves to poor nations where people live with their backs perpetually against the wall. That's bias.

It might be that our neighborhoods with high homicide rates are quite similar to a third-world country.
0 Replies
 
RABEL222
 
  6  
Reply Tue 10 May, 2016 07:48 pm
@revelette2,
We have too many blow, them away first than, start asking questions types here in the U S of A, even among cops.
0 Replies
 
Blickers
 
  3  
Reply Tue 10 May, 2016 08:11 pm
@oralloy,
Quote oralloy:
Quote:
The US does not have the highest murder rate out of all advanced countries (or at least we didn't the last time I looked up the stats, which was quite awhile ago).

So name an advanced country with a higher murder rate than the US.
oralloy
 
  -3  
Reply Wed 11 May, 2016 01:34 am
@Blickers,
Taiwan.
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Wed 11 May, 2016 01:58 am
@oralloy,
Make that: Taiwan in the 1990s.

http://web.archive.org/web/20011206052709/www.moi.gov.tw/W3/xmoi1hh.htm

It appears that they've managed to slowly reduce their rates over time since then, and they aren't so high these days. But Taiwan was a modern industrialized country back in the 1990s.
Olivier5
 
  5  
Reply Wed 11 May, 2016 03:57 am
@oralloy,
If they can do it, you can do it...
Linkat
 
  2  
Reply Wed 11 May, 2016 08:28 am
@Blickers,
Sampling of developed countries with murder rates higher than the US

Lithuania and Estonia
Greenland
Argentina
Montenegro
Uruguay
Russia
Seychelles
Bermuda

and there are more but that was a sampling.

The whole idea of this article was to discuss that many of the comparisons to the US are biased. You mention diversity (which as I stated is only one bias not all) - you mention and compare non-citizens from one country to the US - this is not diversity; this is only stating which countries have more non-citizens or new to the country.

Diversity is one's backgrounds - we may have some children born in the US, but are of different cultures not just native Americans which only make up a very small percent of the US population. In the area I live, we have a high population of Cape Verdeans - there murder rate is very high - could that have an impact of the murder rate in the US? My co-worker was born in Honduras - he has many families members here along with living in a community with many individuals are from Honduras - Honduras is top of the list for murders. Could this impact the US murder rate? I could continue with this list.

I am not saying this is the cause of the murder rate - but denying it could have an impact and including this information with statistics causes stats to be biased. If one really wants a true conclusion - one uses all stats available to make a clear picture.

Blickers
 
  3  
Reply Wed 11 May, 2016 09:34 am
@oralloy,
Quote Blickers:
Quote:
So name an advanced country with a higher murder rate than the US.

Quote oralloy:
Quote:
Make that: Taiwan in the 1990s.

http://web.archive.org/web/20011206052709/www.moi.gov.tw/W3/xmoi1hh.htm

It appears that they've managed to slowly reduce their rates over time since then, and they aren't so high these days. But Taiwan was a modern industrialized country back in the 1990s.

In 1992, according to the number of murders in your link, (1,540) and looking up Taiwan's population in 1992, (21 Million), we arrive at a murder per 100,000 inhabitants figure of: 7.3 per 100K inhabitants.

In 1992, according to FBI stats, the US had a murder rate of 9.3 per 100K. So, no, you didn't find one.

You get partial credit for finding a presently advanced country with somewhat near our murder rate, though. Although in 1992, Taiwan was not so advanced in relation to the US-its GDP per capita was about a third of ours. Today it's about half.
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Wed 11 May, 2016 12:49 pm
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:
If they can do it, you can do it...

We did. Our homicide rate dropped over time just as theirs did.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Wed 11 May, 2016 12:50 pm
@Blickers,
Blickers wrote:
In 1992, according to FBI stats, the US had a murder rate of 9.3 per 100K. So, no, you didn't find one.

The US has a much lower homicide rate now. Our rate today is lower than Taiwan's was in the 1990s.


Blickers wrote:
Although in 1992, Taiwan was not so advanced in relation to the US-its GDP per capita was about a third of ours.

Taiwan is a very advanced society. A lot of our advanced electronics come from Taiwan.
Blickers
 
  2  
Reply Wed 11 May, 2016 07:36 pm
@oralloy,
Quote Oralloy:
Quote:
Taiwan is a very advanced society. A lot of our advanced electronics come from Taiwan.

Manufacturing mass-fi home electronics and such is a sign of an industrial base. But how much of what Taiwan is manufacturing was invented there? The people of Taiwan are not poor, but they are not in the top tier of countries like the US, France, UK, Japan, etc. Taiwan is getting there, but not quite there yet.

Quote Oralloy:
Quote:
he US has a much lower homicide rate now. Our rate today is lower than Taiwan's was in the 1990s.

I am an easy guy to get along with. If Taiwan's murder rate was higher than ours now, I would say you win. If Taiwan's murder rate was higher in 1992 than ours was in 1992, I would say you win. But I can't say you win if Taiwan's murder rate in 1992 was higher than our murder rate now. That I can't let you have.
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 11 May, 2016 08:31 pm
@Blickers,
Blickers wrote:
Manufacturing mass-fi home electronics and such is a sign of an industrial base. But how much of what Taiwan is manufacturing was invented there? The people of Taiwan are not poor, but they are not in the top tier of countries like the US, France, UK, Japan, etc. Taiwan is getting there, but not quite there yet.

I see no reason for denying Taiwan status as a modern industrial economy.


Blickers wrote:
I am an easy guy to get along with. If Taiwan's murder rate was higher than ours now, I would say you win. If Taiwan's murder rate was higher in 1992 than ours was in 1992, I would say you win. But I can't say you win if Taiwan's murder rate in 1992 was higher than our murder rate now. That I can't let you have.

I will concede that Taiwan's rate is less than ours in any given year, but their past case is still valuable as a comparison because it shows a high level of homicides in a modern economy with few guns involved.

Switzerland of the past is noteworthy too, due to their peaceful society with virtually no gun regulation.
revelette2
 
  4  
Reply Thu 12 May, 2016 06:02 am
@Olivier5,
From what I have observed, big changes only happen if the narrative gets changed and accepted. The NRA and gun lobbyist have been very successful in making the narrative be about the government taking away your rights. However, I think that has been changing according to the last few years polls on the subject. We just need to people to care enough to keep fighting even when there hasn't been a big shooting for a while. Unfortunately, we as a society are pretty fickle with short attention spans.
Blickers
 
  2  
Reply Thu 12 May, 2016 08:29 am
@oralloy,
Quote oralloy:
Quote:
I will concede that Taiwan's rate is less than ours in any given year, but their past case is still valuable as a comparison because it shows a high level of homicides in a modern economy with few guns involved.

It's not quite that modern-their GDP per capita is about half of ours. But it's not that far behind, and moving up quickly.

Taiwan's example does not provide any evidence that gun control-or at least handgun control, which is where the murder problem is-won't lower our murder rate.

Taiwan is something of an anomaly, because only 16% of its murders involved a firearm. In the US, two thirds of our murders involve a firearm. Taiwan has obvious cultural differences from us, and apparently some cultural differences from other slightly wealthier Asian nations. South Korea has a total murder rate of only 0.8 per 100K inhabitants, (as opposed to Taiwan's 3.0 and the US' 4.5), and Japan has only 0.3. There is no evidence that decreasing handgun murders will result in a huge upswing in murder by other means to compensate. Knife and other weapons will likely go up some, but nowhere near the number of murders which will be prevented by making handguns very hard to get.

Like I said, the nature of the country with its immigrant groups and other factors will always make America slightly more violent than other advanced nations, but not 400% more violent.

Linkat
 
  2  
Reply Thu 12 May, 2016 08:48 am
@Blickers,
Quote:
Like I said, the nature of the country with its immigrant groups and other factors will always make America slightly more violent than other advanced nations, but not 400% more violent.


How do you come up with that? Just off the top of your head or are there any real facts or stats to support this?

Leave Taiwan alone for now as obviously this appears to be a moving target - What about the number of countries that I stated that are considered developed countries that have murder rates in excess of the US - significantly I might add?

I actually use developed countries in some reports I produce at work so I do have an understanding of countries that are considered developed for financial purposes - we maintain a list that does change periodically - but the countries I listed are considered developed when reporting financial information to government agencies (SEC for example) so I do consider this as a good source.

I am not saying that gun laws have an effect or do not have an effect - I am saying the stats provided typically do not give a good picture. I would hope that gathering such statistics has a purpose - I would hope the purpose to help lower murder rates and make places safer - not simply bragging rights. How are you supposed to do so, if you are not honest and look at all impacts?
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  3  
Reply Thu 12 May, 2016 08:59 am
Right now, i pray that an army of todlers pumps a few bullets into George Zimmerman.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/george-zimmerman-auction-gun-killed-trayvon-martin-article-1.2634153
revelette2
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 May, 2016 01:12 pm
@Olivier5,
I know I read that this morning and I thought, what a sick attitude. Even if he thought himself justified, he should at least feel sorrow for the taking of a young life. Now he seeks to profit off of it.
 

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