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Hundreds of Armed Right-Wing Militia Members Take Over Federal Building

 
 
blatham
 
  1  
Sun 3 Jan, 2016 09:06 pm
@ehBeth,
I hardly ever do Facebook so I'm spared that crap, thank god. But yeah, ignoring them is exactly the correct strategy.
blatham
 
  2  
Sun 3 Jan, 2016 09:09 pm
@BillRM,
Quote:
Surround them and let no one in or out with special note of no food allowed in.

I think that's quite unnecessary. They desire "celebrity" as Beth suggests. The drama of it, the self-perception of importance and meaning to their lives.
Glennn
 
  2  
Sun 3 Jan, 2016 09:12 pm
The thing that stands out to me concerning the re-sentencing is that the original judge in the case--Judge Hogan--is quoted as saying that the mandatory minimum sentence of five years would shock the conscience. He said that five years of imprisonment "would result in a sentence which is grossly disproportionate to the severity of the offenses here . . ." He also said that the Hammonds' actions “could not have been conduct intended under [the Antiterrorism and Effective Death Penalty Act]…” He then used his discretion under the Eighth Amendment ( Excessive bail shall not be required…nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted) to give the two men lighter sentences.

It is hard to believe that a judge who heard trial testimony from witnesses that pointed to the defendants' deliberate burning of land for the purpose of covering up their illegal poaching would make such comments during sentencing.

edgarblythe
 
  2  
Sun 3 Jan, 2016 09:18 pm

Andy Borowitz
21 mins ·
OK, by now I've heard a lot of great names for the Oregon ranchers: "y'all-qaeda," "yee-hawdists," "yokel haram."
JPB
 
  3  
Sun 3 Jan, 2016 09:19 pm
@Glennn,
Judges are people with personal opinions. Even individual supreme court justices give opinions that are outrageous depending on one's perspective. That's why there are nine of them. Judge Hogan decided that the minimum sentence wasn't appropriate. The Ninth Circuit disagreed and the USSC did not take the case. It's done. The Hammonds are heading back to jail to fulfill their sentences and the Bundys are using them (against their wishes) to get some attention. Unfortunately, the Bundys are getting plenty of attention.
ehBeth
 
  2  
Sun 3 Jan, 2016 09:19 pm
@boomerang,
One of the Bundy's . He doesn't provide a source.

What I can find of the area's history doesn't support his comments. There was the initial chunk of government land (95,155 acres) p 43, then the purchase of 2 large ranches (one of them about a third of the entire parcel) - subsequent purchases of a few more to get to the total of 187,757 acres.

(187,757 - 95,155 - 65,000 (blitzen valley ranch) - 14,000 (double o ranch) = 13,602 acres)

Given that a small ranch is about 2000 acres in that area - you could maybe squeeze another 3 - 10 ranches being bought to reach the balance of 13,602 acres.


Nothing like the numbers Bundy has claimed.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Sun 3 Jan, 2016 09:20 pm
@edgarblythe,
Edgar
Those are brilliant. And doncha just love Borowitz. Funny, funny guy.
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  1  
Sun 3 Jan, 2016 09:21 pm
@blatham,
Be that as it may they should be contain for the public safety. .
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  2  
Sun 3 Jan, 2016 09:22 pm
thinkProgress has a very good piece up on all this
http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2016/01/03/3735647/malheur-lake-oregon-militia-explainer/
0 Replies
 
Glennn
 
  1  
Sun 3 Jan, 2016 09:40 pm
@JPB,
I would go further and say that it goes beyond just a simple matter of opinion when after hearing testimony pointing directly at arson committed for the purpose of covering up another crime (poaching), a judge makes such comments as I have shown him to have made. I would say that Judge Hogan is guilty of gross misconduct/negligence, or out and out conspiracy to aid and abet the defendants.

Isn't there an aspect of the legal system that would recognize such misconduct, and then take action against such a judge? I would hope so.
0 Replies
 
Glennn
 
  1  
Sun 3 Jan, 2016 09:45 pm
@JPB,
Quote:
. . . purportedly. . .

You mean proven.
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  -1  
Sun 3 Jan, 2016 09:46 pm
@Glennn,
Quote:
He also said that the Hammonds' actions “could not have been conduct intended under [the Antiterrorism and Effective Death Penalty Act]…”


I haven't read this law, but the judge (who the appellate court didn't agree with) seems correct when concluding that these weren't acts of terrorism. There are plenty of laws against property damage which they could have been charged with violating.


Quote:
It is hard to believe that a judge who heard trial testimony from witnesses that pointed to the defendants' deliberate burning of land for the purpose of covering up their illegal poaching would make such comments during sentencing.


Why do you find that hard to believe?
Glennn
 
  3  
Sun 3 Jan, 2016 09:52 pm
@Lash,
Quote:
The gov is trying to force these ranchers to sell their life's work- the homesteads they've built and want to leave as inheritance.

In late 2014, the hammonds agreed to pay the federal government $400,000 to settle a lawsuit seeking to force them to pay more than a $1 million in costs for fighting fires they set, which they've paid.

The settlement also required the Hammonds to give the land bureau first chance at buying a particular ranch parcel adjacent to public land if they intended to sell. I suppose that might look like a land grab kind of thing, but there's no way to really tell.
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  0  
Sun 3 Jan, 2016 10:00 pm
@boomerang,
boomerang wrote:

Quote:
The BLM has been ******* with them for years, trying to harass them out. I still don't know all the details, but I think this should be considered before dismissing their side of the story.


I keep looking for this side of the story and can't find it so if you know about it I hope you'll share.


According to this source:
Quote:

By the 1970’s nearly all the ranches adjacent to the Blitzen Valley were purchased by the US Fish and Wildlife Service (FWS) and added to the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge. The refuge covers over 187,000 acres and stretches over 45 miles long and 37 miles wide. The expansion of the refuge grew and surrounds to the Hammond’s ranch. Being approached many times by the FWS, the Hammonds refused to sell. Other ranchers also choose not to sell.

During the 1970’s the Fish and Wildlife Service (FWS), in conjunction with the Bureau of Land Management (BLM), took a different approach to get the ranchers to sell. Ranchers were told that, “grazing was detrimental to wildlife and must be reduced”. 32 out of 53 permits were revoked and many ranchers were forced to leave. Grazing fees were raised significantly for those who were allowed to remain. Refuge personnel took over the irrigation system claiming it as their own.

The FWS wanted to acquire the ranch lands on the Silvies Plain to add to their already vast holdings. Refuge personnel intentional diverted the water to bypassing the vast meadowlands, directing the water into the rising Malheur Lakes. Within a few short years the surface area of the lakes doubled. Thirty-one ranches on the Silvies plains were flooded. Homes, corrals, barns and graze-land were washed a way and destroyed

In August 1994 the BLM & FWS illegally began building a fence around the Hammonds water source. Owning the water rights and knowing that their cattle relied on that water source daily the Hammonds tried to stop the building of the fence. The BLM & FWS called the Harney County Sheriff department and had Dwight Hammond (Father) arrested and charged with “disturbing and interfering with” federal officials or federal contractors (two counts, each a felony).


http://theconservativetreehouse.com/2016/01/03/full-story-on-whats-going-on-in-oregon-militia-take-over-malheur-national-wildlife-refuge-in-protest-to-hammond-family-persecution/

That's just a (relatively) brief except. The article goes on at some length.
Glennn
 
  2  
Sun 3 Jan, 2016 10:00 pm
@layman,
Quote:
Why do you find that hard to believe?

If I'm a judge, and someone is before me who has burned someone else's property, and someone testifies that that someone did so in order to cover another crime, then I'm apt to give them the maximum penalty since the destruction of property was not the result of an accident or negligence, but of destroying evidence.

So, yes, it is hard to believe that a judge heard such testimony and decided that even the minimum sentence was way too much.
ehBeth
 
  2  
Sun 3 Jan, 2016 10:04 pm
@layman,
Before you accept that source, you might want to look at where they got their numbers.
0 Replies
 
Wilso
 
  1  
Sun 3 Jan, 2016 10:09 pm
@blatham,
blatham wrote:

I hardly ever do Facebook so I'm spared that crap, thank god. But yeah, ignoring them is exactly the correct strategy.


I was thinking about that. What will their reaction be to trying to start a war, and nobody turns up.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Sun 3 Jan, 2016 10:11 pm
@Wilso,
It'll be appropriate for the girl scouts to show up to sell them cookies. There's a lesson there - some place.
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  0  
Sun 3 Jan, 2016 10:13 pm
@Glennn,
Quote:
If I'm a judge, and someone is before me who has burned someone else's property, and someone testifies that that someone did so in order to cover another crime, then I'm apt to give them the maximum penalty since the destruction of property was not the result of an accident or negligence, but of destroying evidence.


Well, the judge was there, we weren't. Says here:

Quote:
Federal attorneys, Frank Papagni, hunted down a witness that was not mentally capable to be a credible witness. Dusty Hammond (grandson and nephew) testified that Steven told him to start a fire. He was 13 at the time and 24 when he testified (11 years later). At 24 Dusty had been suffering with mental problems for many years. He had estranged his family including his mother. Judge Hogan noted that Dusty’s memories as a 13-year-old boy were not clear or credible. He allowed the prosecution to continually use Dusty’s testimony anyway. When speaking to the Hammonds about this testimony, they understood that Dusty was manipulated and expressed nothing but love for their troubled grandson.


http://theconservativetreehouse.com/2016/01/03/full-story-on-whats-going-on-in-oregon-militia-take-over-malheur-national-wildlife-refuge-in-protest-to-hammond-family-persecution/
Glennn
 
  1  
Sun 3 Jan, 2016 10:18 pm
@layman,
Quote:
Federal attorneys, Frank Papagni, hunted down a witness that was not mentally capable to be a credible witness. Dusty Hammond (grandson and nephew) testified that Steven told him to start a fire. He was 13 at the time and 24 when he testified (11 years later). At 24 Dusty had been suffering with mental problems for many years. He had estranged his family including his mother. Judge Hogan noted that Dusty’s memories as a 13-year-old boy were not clear or credible. He allowed the prosecution to continually use Dusty’s testimony anyway. When speaking to the Hammonds about this testimony, they understood that Dusty was manipulated and expressed nothing but love for their troubled grandson.

Ahh, justice. Can't live with it, and can't live . . . with it. Smile

Sometimes ya can't help wishing that there is a Hell.
0 Replies
 
 

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