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Hundreds of Armed Right-Wing Militia Members Take Over Federal Building

 
 
BillRM
 
  1  
Mon 4 Jan, 2016 04:06 pm
@Thomas,
Quote:
Is anyone alleging credibly that the US government violated any such obligations in this case?


In this case no however in this thread the arming and facing down the federal government had been justify by claims of not allowing people to reach their lands, somehow fencing off their water supplies and even claims of the government flooding lands.

It all sound like bullshit to me and no one have given any links to such behaviors
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  3  
Mon 4 Jan, 2016 04:19 pm
Oh, goodness.
Quote:
Stewart Rhodes, president and founder of the Oath Keepers, posted a video statement on the ranchers' situation in which he criticized the son of infamous Nevada rancher Cliven Bundy for taking up the cause of Dwight and Stewart Hammond. Rhodes branded those involved with Ammon Bundy's protest as “potheads.”

“The Oath Keepers will not be involved in an armed stand off that’s being manufactured by potheads who want a fight because this is going to be a bad fight, not a righteous moral high ground fight,” Rhodes said in the video, which was posted Thursday.
http://bit.ly/1kGvtW2
I'm weighing whether or not I ought to take this personally.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  2  
Mon 4 Jan, 2016 04:22 pm
This guy ain't dumb. I truly do hope folks eventually get that this man is much more dangerous than many have assumed.
Quote:
Sen. Ted Cruz (R-TX) on Monday said that he hoped the armed militia that has taken over a federal wildlife refuge in Oregon will stand down, noting that individuals do not have the right to threaten use of force.

"Our prayers right now are with everyone involved in what’s happening with Oregon, and especially those in law enforcement that are risking their lives," Cruz said when asked about the militia while in Iowa, according to NBC News.
http://bit.ly/1kGvRUz
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Mon 4 Jan, 2016 04:26 pm
@blatham,
Cruz is one of the most dangerous persons in America. If he gets in the White House it is going to be a tragedy of mammoth proportions.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Mon 4 Jan, 2016 04:26 pm
@boomerang,
So, rape by coercion isn't really rape.
Thomas
 
  2  
Mon 4 Jan, 2016 04:37 pm
@boomerang,
boomerang wrote:
That's exactly what I thought so I'm really trying to understand all this "taken" talk. It doesn't add up.

That's because you're trying to understand the talk on the logic of its merit as opposed to the logic of its politics. And in my opinion, the logic of its politics is properly understood as, "while we're on the topic of federal land ownership, let me vent my favorite peeve about it."
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Mon 4 Jan, 2016 04:40 pm
@engineer,
This is how I see it too. Like #BLM & Occupy & so many other groups who cite a form of oppression, these Americans have the right to give voice to their case.

These guys are devalued because they're dumb as rocks, carrying the ever unpopular gun, and they are not members of a protected group. They are roundly vilified on social media (sheesh!) BEFORE we hear their complaints.

Personally, I'm sincerely grateful to those of you who've made yourselves aware of the facts surrounding their issue.

It's not black and white, as I guess we see.
Thomas
 
  1  
Mon 4 Jan, 2016 04:41 pm
@blatham,
I don't see the connection: While I'm not arguing with your opinion that Cruz is dangerous, how does his statement about Oregon show that he is?
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  2  
Mon 4 Jan, 2016 04:46 pm
@Lash,
Lash wrote:
It's not black and white, as I guess we see.

I disagree. In the Oregon case, the militia-occupants are clearly in the wrong, and the federal government clearly in the right.

And the issue is black and white in a different way as well. If a band of frustrated Black-Lives-Matter activists had armed themselves and occupied the Lincoln Memorial on Martin Luther King Day, federal agents would not be as patient. The Feds are showing remarkable restraint in the Oregon case.
Finn dAbuzz
 
  0  
Mon 4 Jan, 2016 04:55 pm
@puzzledperson,
Local sheriffs can be nut jobs too.

This is not to say this one is, as I know nothing about the man but it interesting how people who would never trust law enforcement to tell the truth when a young black man is shot and killed by an officer, are more inclined to consider them threat experts when it comes to "right-wing extremists"

Maybe he just doesn't have a way with words, but it hardly seems likely that the men who are occupying this station see it as an attempt to overthrow the federal government, or, for that matter, the county government. Now they may have it in mind that a bloody stand will somehow spark a rebellion, but even if that's the case, they are not now attempting to overthrow any government.

I can certainly understand why the sheriff is anxious. This could be a very difficult situation for his small force to deal with, however given that he only has a half dozen or so deputies and believes these men want a gunfight to occur, I would think the smart and safe option to take is to leave them be and call for reinforcements. The station is hardly vital to the operation of any level of government, and unless they have hostages, which I do not believe is the case there's no reason to confront them. This is a good time for
talking.

The NYT op-ed is misleading in its attempt to make the case that right-wing groups present a greater threat to the US than Islamists. Although 382 officers were polled, the authors seem to be able find only one who unequivocally states that right-wingers are a greater threat than Islamists. A second officer ranked right-wingers "higher" than Islamists because the level of intelligence available concerning the former is lower that that available concerning the latter. This, arguably makes them less predictable and thus, to a certain, extent more difficult to deal with, it doesn't follow that they are the greater threat to America.

It's not at all surprising that officers around the country perceive right-wing extremists a great threat to their jurisdiction than jihadi. Only with the advent of ISIS inspired "home grown" jihadists has the threat of Islamist terrorism been considered realistic in Anytown USA. Al Qaeda operatives, successful or thwarted, we're looking for big impact, symbolic attacks. For the most part, the radicalized Muslim American isn't going to be capable of pulling off such attacks. Instead they have been and will be focusing on local soft targets: recruiting offices in a local shopping center, the holiday party of a local employer. Should these attacks continue and increase in frequency, the police officers in Anytown USA will begin to fear the threats more.

This is not to say there isn't a threat of violence from fringe right-wing groups, but the motivation of people like the authors of the NYT op-ed is very often more to taint conservatism and defend Muslims in the wake of Islamist attacks. The defense of Muslims is a knee-jerk progressive reaction which is entirely unnecessary if the fear is that reasonable people will start thinking that every Muslim is a terrorist. The unreasonable minority who think that way are certainly not going to be persuaded otherwise by an Op-Ed in any newspaper.

I intend to read the cited article from the CTC, but am currently on a plane and heading home. It's interesting to note that on the first page of the website 10 recent publications are profiled. Six are focused exclusively on Islamists. Two, bear covers with photos related to Islamist terrorists, and one is a general study of terrorism which undoubtedly references Islamist terrorists. Only one is devoted to right-wing violence and it is entitled "Challengers From the Sidelines," which one way or another, implies Islamists are the ones on the playing field.
Lash
 
  1  
Mon 4 Jan, 2016 04:57 pm
@Thomas,
I wonder if there is a precedent of a black group having an armed protest or occupation in a legal carry state.

McGentrix
 
  -1  
Mon 4 Jan, 2016 04:58 pm
@Thomas,
Thomas wrote:

And the issue is black and white in a different way as well. If a band of frustrated Black-Lives-Matter activists had armed themselves and occupied the Lincoln Memorial on Martin Luther King Day, federal agents would not be as patient. The Feds are showing remarkable restraint in the Oregon case.


You see these two things as equitable?

blatham
 
  2  
Mon 4 Jan, 2016 05:06 pm
Quote:
And 30 years ago, a similar standoff between police and a black anti-government group in Philadelphia played out very differently. Armed members of a fringe liberation group called MOVE were bombed and burned alive for directing their weapons at police. The bombing highlighted the stark contrast in the way cops treat black and white radicals.
Members of the liberation group sought a natural lifestyle, free of government control, law enforcement, and technology. They lived together in a barricaded house, protested for animal rights, and ate raw foods. Similar to Bundy’s supporters, they believed the federal government violated their constitutional rights. And with a cache of weapons in their possession, they also advocated armed defense if targeted by the city’s authorities.
http://bit.ly/1kGD9aS
Setanta
 
  2  
Mon 4 Jan, 2016 05:07 pm
Oh sure . . . use facts. That is so unfair.
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Mon 4 Jan, 2016 05:10 pm
@engineer,
engineer wrote:

All over the US, people are being forced out of apartments in good neighborhoods as the rents rise and being forced to sell homes as property taxes rise, but heaven forbid a rancher has to pay a nominal fee to graze on federal lands. Yep, let's pull out the rifles and march to their defense. The sense of entitlement is amazing.


Their beef (no pun intended) may be nothing more than this (I really don't know. Whatever it is, maneuvering for an armed confrontation - if that is indeed what they are doing - is a foolhardy, dangerously irresponsible and possibly deranged ploy) but I hope you are not suggesting that they are representative of ranchers in general.

It wasn't that long ago that Willie Nelson convinced most progressives that farmers were victims. Are ranchers all that distinct from farmers? Well, I guess they make their money by raising animals for slaughter, while farmers grow wonderful veggies (and of course farmers never kill their chickens, pigs or lambs) and the Rancher in many of the old westerns was unbridled capitalism personified while it was the poor sod-busting farmer and his family (frequently liberal Swedes named Johanson or apolitical Mexican dirt farmers named Juan or Miguel) who were so often preyed upon by the Rancher's murderous minions. So I guess the can easily be stand-ins for Good vs Evil.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  -1  
Mon 4 Jan, 2016 05:12 pm
@Setanta,
facts? Where?

armed people barricaded in a house in a urban location with no open carry laws is a far cry from armed people in a building in the middle of no where in an open carry state.

There is no comparison to be made. And seriously, 30 years ago? You don't think things have changed a bit from 30 years ago?
Thomas
 
  3  
Mon 4 Jan, 2016 05:20 pm
@McGentrix,
McGentrix wrote:
You see these two things as equitable?

I don't think the word "equitable" means what you think it means. But I see the two as analogous, so I guess that's a "yes".
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  2  
Mon 4 Jan, 2016 05:22 pm
@blatham,
blatham wrote:

This guy ain't dumb. I truly do hope folks eventually get that this man is much more dangerous than many have assumed.
Quote:
Sen. Ted Cruz (R-TX) on Monday said that he hoped the armed militia that has taken over a federal wildlife refuge in Oregon will stand down, noting that individuals do not have the right to threaten use of force.

"Our prayers right now are with everyone involved in what’s happening with Oregon, and especially those in law enforcement that are risking their lives," Cruz said when asked about the militia while in Iowa, according to NBC News.
http://bit.ly/1kGvRUz


So let me see if I understand this...Cruz says precisely the right thing and this makes him more dangerous than any one can imagine?

Do I have that right, or is calling for them to stand down, and stating that people don't have the right to threaten violence dangerous in a way I can't imagine?

Or is it because he admitted he prays?
Setanta
 
  2  
Mon 4 Jan, 2016 05:23 pm
@McGentrix,
Sure, Bubba . . . you've got your opinion, and you don't need no damned facts to get in the way.
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  1  
Mon 4 Jan, 2016 05:26 pm
Not much here, really, but these are excerpts from every liberal's favorite, NPR:

Quote:
But why exactly are a Nevada rancher's son and his supporters taking up the cause of two guys from Oregon? What is the source of the continued friction between many ranchers and the federal government?...The situation began, in some ways, in the decades following the Civil War. The 1862 Homestead Act granted 160 acres of land to the people willing to settle it. Ranchers in some regions needed far more land than that to be profitable. They eventually began to pay grazing fees for the right to lease federal land — if they agreed to federal oversight.

"When you are using somebody else's land for your livelihood, that puts you in a very dependent relationship," Paul Starrs, a geography professor at the University of Nevada, Reno, told NPR's Ted Robbins in 2014. "And livestock ranchers are, in my experience, pretty savvy people. And they don't like that uncertainty. Nobody really likes uncertainty."

Some ranchers have strongly objected to the government's management of federal lands, especially over issues of water or environmental conservation, and to the terms of their leases. ...The tension is heightened by how much land the federal government continues to own in the Western states.

According to the Congressional Research Service, in Nevada the U.S. owned more than 81 percent of the land in the state in 2010. In Oregon, that number hovered right around half — 53 percent of the land, more than 30 million acres of which were administered by either the BLM or the U.S. Forest Service.

The animus harbored by the two Hammond men for federal land agencies dates back decades. Both reportedly were arrested for obstructing federal officials in 1994 — in protest of which "nearly 500 incensed ranchers showed up at a rally in Burns," according to High Country News. But even before that, the Hammonds bristled at the authority of managers of the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge.

Even Cliven Bundy, Ammon's father, expressed his hesitation over the protests. "I don't quite understand how much they're going to accomplish," Bundy told OPB. "I think of it this way: What business does the Bundy family have in Harney County, Oregon?"

Still, that has not dissuaded Ammon Bundy or the group with which he's holed up in the Malheur refuge headquarters. At a press conference there, Bundy said his plan may take "several months at the shortest to accomplish."


http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2016/01/03/461831737/of-ranchers-and-rancor-the-roots-of-the-armed-occupation-in-oregon



0 Replies
 
 

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