43
   

Hundreds of Armed Right-Wing Militia Members Take Over Federal Building

 
 
BillRM
 
  2  
Mon 4 Jan, 2016 08:49 am
@layman,
Quote:
There again, the left wing cheered them on and called them heroes for their defiance. Waddaya think, Bill? A buncha mortar shells, or just one daisy cutter?


First I was the one who posted that little bit of information and second the Indians was not armed at any point in time that I could find. Having women and children with them. Nor did they threaten federal agents.
layman
 
  -2  
Mon 4 Jan, 2016 08:49 am
@BillRM,
Quote:
Why not as for example a member of this movement by the name of ‎Timothy McVeigh....


You sure you're not thinkin of Charlie Manson. When did McVeigh ever claim he thought that. His self-professed motive was to make the feds somehow "pay" for their "crimes," as I recall. Payback. Revenge, and all, eh?
layman
 
  -2  
Mon 4 Jan, 2016 08:53 am
@BillRM,
Quote:
Nor did they threaten federal agents.


When did these guys "threaten" federal agents? I'm aware that they said they will "defend" themselves but I'm not aware that they are there to roam the streets looking for feds to kill, eh?

And, btw, where are you getting this "armed to the teeth" phrase you're so fond of? I read an account of a reporter who went into the building. She said there were about 12 people there, and that some were armed, and some weren't.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  3  
Mon 4 Jan, 2016 08:58 am
A tweet from a reporter at the Oregonian...

Quote:
Ian Kullgren ✔ @IanKullgren
I talked to Ryan Bundy on the phone again. He said they're willing to kill and be killed if necessary. #OregonUnderAttack


layman
 
  -1  
Mon 4 Jan, 2016 09:04 am
@BillRM,
BillRM wrote:

Why not as for example a member of this movement by the name of ‎Timothy McVeigh another ex.marine killed hundreds with the idea it would start a revolution.


And why to you continue to equate these guys, who, like many student protestors, Indians, unionists, etc. before them, have protested some cause by taking possession of a building without permission, to a mass murderer?

Is there some equivalence here that you see?
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  -2  
Mon 4 Jan, 2016 09:06 am
@blatham,
blatham wrote:

A tweet from a reporter at the Oregonian...

Quote:
Ian Kullgren ✔ @IanKullgren
I talked to Ryan Bundy on the phone again. He said they're willing to kill and be killed if necessary. #OregonUnderAttack





Yeah, exactly. "If necessary." If, in other words, they are attacked. Maybe they should, just as a test, give Montel Williams a submachine gun and let him charge the building, blasting as he came, eh? I wonder what would happen?
engineer
 
  3  
Mon 4 Jan, 2016 09:11 am
@layman,
What is the definition of "attack"? Agents coming to evict or arrest them?
layman
 
  -2  
Mon 4 Jan, 2016 09:14 am
@engineer,
engineer wrote:

What is the definition of "attack"? Agents coming to evict or arrest them?


No, I don't think that the idea. They will simply refuse to surrender. They plan to resist, and stand their ground. But, now, if agents come with guns, and try to forcibly subdue them by opening fire, well, then, that's another ball game.
layman
 
  -1  
Mon 4 Jan, 2016 09:33 am
@layman,
layman wrote:

engineer wrote:

What is the definition of "attack"? Agents coming to evict or arrest them?


They will simply refuse to surrender.


Then they can charge them with trespass AND resisting arrest, eh?

And, if they then get a writ of possession from a court, and try to enforce it, and still meet resistance, they can probably charge them with something like interfering with a cop in the performance of his duty. They can rack up all kinda charges, I bet.

0 Replies
 
boomerang
 
  2  
Mon 4 Jan, 2016 09:36 am
@Lash,
Quote:
What exactly are you looking for?


I'm looking for proof that the government stole land from eastern Oregon ranchers.
layman
 
  -2  
Mon 4 Jan, 2016 09:44 am
Hmm, sez here:

Quote:
Citizens may resist unlawful arrest to the point of taking an arresting officer's life if necessary.” Plummer v. State, 136 Ind. 306. These principles apply as well to an officer attempting to make an arrest, who abuses his authority and transcends the bounds thereof by the use of unnecessary force and violence, as they do to a private individual who unlawfully uses such force and violence.” Jones v. State, 26 Tex. App. I; Beaverts v. State, 4 Tex. App. 1 75; Skidmore v. State, 43 Tex. 93, 903.


A lot of jury awards have been given against authorities who use "unnecessary force," eh? In the Ruby Ridge case, they even had to pay a guy who admittedly killed a federal agent.
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Mon 4 Jan, 2016 09:58 am
@Thomas,
Nowhere like that number.
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  -1  
Mon 4 Jan, 2016 10:08 am
Sez here:
Quote:

Under the Fourth Amendment of the United States Constitution a police officer may only use such force as is “objectively reasonable” under all of the circumstances. The standard that courts will use to examine whether ause of force is constitutional was first set forth in Graham v. Connor, 490 U.S. 386 (1989) and expanded by subsequent court cases. The reasonableness of a particular use of force must be judged from the perspective of a reasonable officer on the scene, rather than with 20/20 vision of hindsight. The reasonableness must account for the fact that officers are often forced to make split-second judgments - in circumstances that are tense, uncertain, and rapidly evolving. The reasonableness inquiry in reviewing use of force is an objective one: the question is whether the officer’s actions are objectively reasonable in light of the facts and circumstances confronting them. The officer’s perception may be a consideration, but other objective factors will determine the reasonableness of force. These factors may include but are not limited to:
a. The severity of the crime(s) at issue;


So, if you want to obey the constitution (4th amendment) I guess you would have to ask yourself:

Is it "objectively reasonable" to use deadly force to effectuate an arrest for "trespass" which is posing no imminent threat to anyone?

If it aint, then the attempt to do so is unconstitutional, i.e., illegal, and can be resisted with deadly force, if necessary, it would seem.

Again, I think the best way to test this is to give Montel Williams an assault rifle and let him charge, spraying caps as he comes.
0 Replies
 
FBM
 
  1  
Mon 4 Jan, 2016 10:21 am
@boomerang,
boomerang wrote:

Quote:
What exactly are you looking for?


I'm looking for proof that the government stole land from eastern Oregon ranchers.


The reasonable course of action would be to take the government to court and challenge a specific application of eminent domain. Taking over a government facility and making death threats, rhetorical or otherwise, doesn't seem to be the reasonable way to go about this.
Lordyaswas
 
  3  
Mon 4 Jan, 2016 10:26 am
Right armed, winged militia?

Sounds a bit frightening to me.
layman
 
  -1  
Mon 4 Jan, 2016 10:50 am
@Lordyaswas,
Lordyaswas wrote:

Right armed, winged militia?

Sounds a bit frightening to me.


Not really as scary as toothless inbred crackers, though, eh?

I mean, like, just think of the banjo boy is "Deliverance," ya know? As Count Floyd would say: "Scary, eh, Kids!?"
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Mon 4 Jan, 2016 10:57 am
@boomerang,
Are you under the impression land was stolen? Where did you hear that?
ehBeth
 
  2  
Mon 4 Jan, 2016 11:13 am
@Lash,
Lash wrote:

They've taken 100 ranches since 1900.
Lash
 
  1  
Mon 4 Jan, 2016 11:16 am
@ehBeth,
And, once again, that was a quote pulled from the CNN article I linked a page or two previously, it seems boomer has conflated "taken" with stolen - I never said they stole anything.

They have ways of convincing people to sell.
boomerang
 
  2  
Mon 4 Jan, 2016 11:20 am
@Lash,
I guess I should ask what you mean by "taken".
0 Replies
 
 

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