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What Is Wrong With Christmas Customs?

 
 
saab
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Dec, 2015 02:04 am
@Ionus,
i doubt very much it was just snobs at the wedding drinking some expensive wine.
Wine was the most common drink by everybody. John the Baptist did not drink wine and was seen upon as a very strange person.
The traditon of inviting everybody in for a celebration was very strong and if you did not follow the rules you could be punished.
These traditions still exists in many areas and very strongly amongst the Turks.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Dec, 2015 02:21 am
@saab,
saab wrote:
Before the reformation churches had no pews
There were just sedilia and choir stalls in cathedrals and monasteries until the late High Mediaeval period.
Ionus
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 23 Dec, 2015 02:38 am
@saab,
It doesnt matter what you doubt, the subject seems to be beyond your knowledge. For example, what was the meaning behind the literal meaning called?
saab
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Dec, 2015 02:43 am
@Walter Hinteler,
The pews got to be more or less necessary after the reformation when long sermons got to be important.
In Sweden came a rule that no sermon should last longer than one hour.
So a big clock was put in the churches so the pastor could be controlled.
http://www.fargelandafotoklubb.se/album/klubben/storage/cache/images/001/524/image011,medium.1429965797.jpg
0 Replies
 
saab
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Dec, 2015 10:06 am
@Ionus,
what was the meaning behind the literal meaning called?

I am sorry to say that I do not even understand what your question means.
What meaning behind what meaning?
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Dec, 2015 11:00 am
@saab,
Additionally, the subject is beyond my knowledge: I don't know it either.
saab
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Dec, 2015 11:05 am
@Walter Hinteler,
What a relief I am not the only one.
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  4  
Reply Wed 23 Dec, 2015 01:14 pm
I did not know this. But the subject of the OP has inspired research.
This comment from Wikipedia on the Lord of Misrule:
Quote:
However, according to the anthropologist James Frazer, there was a darker side to the Saturnalia festival. In Durostorum on the Danube (modern Silistra), Roman soldiers would choose a man from among them to be the Lord of Misrule for thirty days. At the end of that thirty days, his throat was cut on the altar of Saturn. Similar origins of the British Lord of Misrule, as a sacrificial king (a temporary king, as Frazer puts it) who was later put to death for the benefit of all, have also been recorded (Frazer, The New Golden Bough, Ed. Theodor H. Gaster, part 7 "Between Old and New: Periods of License," New York: Criterion Books, 1959; rpt. New York: New American Library, 1964. pp. 643–44; 645-50).
Apparently, this is one claimed source of the ginger bread man tradition.
Yum.
neologist
 
  4  
Reply Wed 23 Dec, 2015 01:22 pm
@Ionus,
Wine was an important feature of Jewish life and Law. It was a required part of the Passover celebration. (Which took place in the spring, long after the grape harvest and could not be confused with grape juice.)

Walter Hinteler
 
  3  
Reply Wed 23 Dec, 2015 01:24 pm
@neologist,
A children bishop (or 'boy bishop' as it is called in that wikipedia report) had been mentioned as old tradition already in the Casus Sancti Galli, by Ekkehard IV of St. Gallen: king Konrad I visited the monastery to watch the procession of boys (in processione infantum).
That was done on St. Nikolas day (December 6), in other places on December 28, lasting just a few days or over all that period. (See for instance: Chambers, Edmund Kerchever: The Medieval Stage I, Oxford 1903, here pages 336-371.)
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Dec, 2015 01:26 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Happily, the required sacrifice was no longer in effect.
0 Replies
 
Ionus
 
  0  
Reply Wed 23 Dec, 2015 09:34 pm
@saab,
Quote:
what was the meaning behind the literal meaning called?


Pesher i/ˈpɛʃər/ (Hebrew: פשר‎, pl. pesharim from a Hebrew word meaning "interpretation" in the sense of "solution") is an interpretive commentary on scripture, especially one in Hebrew. It became known from one group of texts, numbering some hundreds, among the Dead Sea Scrolls.

Priests wrote one document. They chose the words carefully so that a priest could read it and any one else reading it would get two different meanings. It spoke of miracles but it was actually about the exercise of power. Changing water into wine was allowing the peasants in to the upper class celebration. It doesnt matter if you dont "get it" this was agreed upon by experts.
Ionus
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 23 Dec, 2015 09:36 pm
@neologist,
Yes it was. Religious devotees were strictly segregated at formal functions. Upper class had wine and peasants had water.
neologist
 
  2  
Reply Wed 23 Dec, 2015 09:44 pm
@Ionus,
Jesus' changing of water to wine was not recorded in the Dead Sea Scrolls. If you read the account, you will note that the new wine was judged superior by the director of the feast.

Regardless of the 'quality', use of wine was common among the Hebrews and early Christians.
Ionus
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 23 Dec, 2015 09:52 pm
@neologist,
Quote:
Jesus' changing of water to wine was not recorded in the Dead Sea Scrolls.
Is everyone I talk to drunk? Where did I say it was? Read everything again, this time sober.

Quote:
If you read the account, you will note that the new wine was judged superior by the director of the feast.
The director of the feast was probably Peter, and as the one responsible for the peasants, of course he saw any move to improve their lot as good.

Quote:
use of wine was common among the Hebrews and early Christians.
You keep saying this, so I take it you are trying to refute water was used?

Do you know the feast involved was Jesus's wedding?
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Dec, 2015 11:25 pm
@Ionus,
I wrote:
Jesus' changing of water to wine was not recorded in the Dead Sea Scrolls.
Ionus wrote:
Is everyone I talk to drunk? Where did I say it was? Read everything again, this time sober.
You were the one who thought it necessary to introduce information about the Dead Sea Scrolls. I have used only canonical scripture.
I wrote:
If you read the account, you will note that the new wine was judged superior by the director of the feast.
Ionus wrote:
The director of the feast was probably Peter, and as the one responsible for the peasants, of course he saw any move to improve their lot as good.
Where did you get that idea? Peter was a fisherman; nowhere does it say he was a caterer.
I wrote:
use of wine was common among the Hebrews and early Christians.
Ionus wrote:
You keep saying this, so I take it you are trying to refute water was used?
Of course not. I'm trying to refute your spurious arguments about the use of wine.
Ionus wrote:
Do you know the feast involved was Jesus's wedding?
Did you know Jesus never married?
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Dec, 2015 11:27 pm
@Ionus,
Ionus wrote:
Yes it was. Religious devotees were strictly segregated at formal functions. Upper class had wine and peasants had water.
Really?! Where in the Bible does it say that?
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Dec, 2015 11:31 pm
@Ionus,
Ionus wrote:
. . . this was agreed upon by experts.
Please identify "experts".
0 Replies
 
saab
 
  3  
Reply Thu 24 Dec, 2015 05:37 am
The Bible says that God gave wine to make men glad (Psalm 104:15). Why have some people turned this blessing of God into a curse? The answer is that many people do not follow God’s instructions.

A blessing of wine was prophesied as a heritage to the chosen people in Genesis 27:28: “May God give you heaven’s dew and earth’s richness — an abundance of grain and new wine [tirosh].” The Hebrew word tirosh, meaning “new wine,” is used in 38 places in the Old Testament. People sometimes conclude that this word means grape juice, or fresh-pressed juice of the vine. However, Hosea 4:11 states: “Old wine [yayin] and new wine [tirosh] take away their understanding.” Grape juice could not have this effect. Tirosh is an intoxicating wine if used in excess.
New Testament instruction

John the Baptist did not drink wine (oinos in the Greek) or any other form of alcohol because it was prophesied that he wouldn’t (Luke 1:15). However, Jesus Christ did drink oinos (wine) (Matthew 11:19; Luke 7:34). Jesus did not preach against the use of wine; instead he did like most other Jews of his day. He drank wine in moderation. In ancient times it was normally diluted with water for drinking, and was one of the principal beverages at that time — as it is today.

Jesus’ first miracle was to change water into wine (oinos). Some people who preach total abstinence claim that this miracle was to turn water into grape juice. Imagine if you can a Jewish wedding banquet where everyone drank only grape juice! (The ancients did not have refrigeration or any other method of preventing grape juice from fermenting.) On this occasion, Christ turned six jars of 20 or 30 gallons each into wine (oinos). This was no small miracle. This wine was of the finest quality — “You have saved the best till now” (John 2:10). At wedding feasts, the hosts normally started with the best wine, and they would bring out lesser-quality wines later.
Here you can read much more and I find the article very informative.
Nowhere is there anything about rich or poor.
https://www.gci.org/series/alcohol/bible
farmerman
 
  2  
Reply Thu 24 Dec, 2015 06:31 am
@saab,
Jesus and his homies used to get really hammered whenever they could. Jewish Holidays are mostly kind of solemn so you need to have a couple of stiff ones a bit so the house isnt all down about the bad news or the close calls.

On Purim they would get totally fucked up. JC would wear a Darth Vader helmet and go around to his "Apostles" saying "Hey Im your Daddy boobeleh"

Actually,they never called themselves APOSTLES, they called themselves POSSE and thats where the term Apostle came from. Lotsa people dont even know that.

Remember when he turned the wine into fishes?, Boy he got that one all wrong and everybody was like'"Cmon Jeez (they called him Jeez)"your harshin ". How bout some rolls to go with the sardines man"?
"And how bout a little taste dude?"

This is all in one of the Scrolls, I forget which one though.
 

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