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What Is Wrong With Christmas Customs?

 
 
saab
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Dec, 2015 10:23 am
@Tes yeux noirs,
I really like the story.
0 Replies
 
saab
 
  2  
Reply Sat 19 Dec, 2015 10:47 am
@Walter Hinteler,
When I was a child and young woman the Massacr of the Innocents were celebrated with a big ball in my home town. The grown ups in their best evening outfits - (smoking and long eveningdresses) We children also in our best. Money were collected for needy families. It was the 28th of December
The 28th has probably seen around 400 been a day to remember all the boys who Herodes killed in connection with Jesu birth
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Dec, 2015 03:26 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
I've read that the Christmas tree is a German tradition. From my point of view that seems incongruous that "eternal life" is symbolized by a tree that was minding its own business and is then chopped down (aka, killed) to become a Christmas symbol of Christianity's promise of eternal life? And, one might wonder if Jews might wonder if Christianity's meaning is truly understood by all adherents.
Walter Hinteler
 
  3  
Reply Sat 19 Dec, 2015 03:42 pm
@Foofie,
Neither "Christkind" (christ child) nor the "Weihnachtsmann" (Christmas man) are connected to the Christmas tree.
The Christmas tree (the earliest documented sources are from towns in Alsace in the 16th century) is just a follower-up of the much older Germanic (and Celtic) "Wintermaien" (winter greens), first forbidden by the church but later 'officially' used as well (Strasburg cathedral, 1590's).

I don't know, if, where and when a fir (Christmas) tree was used as a symbol of eternal life.
neologist
 
  3  
Reply Sat 19 Dec, 2015 03:44 pm
@saab,
saab wrote:
All you are interested in is year 0 and year now. What is in between and what has become Christian traditions mixed very niceliy with modern december traditons in different countries you counld not care about.
There wasn't a year 0, interestingly.

There certainly can be no fault for families and friends gathering for special occasions. Jesus even changed water to wine at a wedding he attended. But how do you suppose Jesus must view having his name associated with the feast of Saturnalia or the worship of
Mizithra?

Easter, BTW, is the English translation of Astarte, a goddess associated with child sacrifice.
George
 
  2  
Reply Sat 19 Dec, 2015 05:10 pm
@neologist,
neologist wrote:
. . . But how do you suppose Jesus must view having his name associated
with the feast of Saturnalia or the worship of Mizithra? . . .
Who is associating his name with Saturnalia or Mizithra? You. He'd tell you
to cut it out.

As to those who made an alternative to the pagan festivals, he would say
"Well done, thou good and faithful servants."

That's what I think.
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Dec, 2015 05:27 pm
@George,
Noted.
Many feel that pagan festivals and images may be sanctified by re packaging as christian. I suppose the results might then be judged according to the way things turn out.
So
Does the current Christmas celebration really bring comfort and joy?
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Dec, 2015 05:30 pm
@neologist,
neologist wrote:
But how do you suppose Jesus must view having his name associated with the feast of Saturnalia or the worship of
Mizithra?


if he wasn't long dead, he should be pleased to have a good marketing team

one out of a bunch of guys saying the same/similar things and they picked him to package - that's got to make a dead guy feel good
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Dec, 2015 05:39 pm
@ehBeth,
I suppose you are right.
So long as the same/similar things are the truth.

I kind of think nominal christianity fails in that area. But it's just my opinion.
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Dec, 2015 06:11 pm
@George,
I call it early architecture.
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  3  
Reply Sat 19 Dec, 2015 06:26 pm
@neologist,
He was following a very traditional Jewish line in his teachings - tribes of people were saying the same thing at that time. He was a good travelling teacher - I suspect he was very charismatic, or representative of a group of charismatic Jewish teachers.
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Dec, 2015 01:09 am
@ehBeth,
ehBeth wrote:
He was following a very traditional Jewish line in his teachings - tribes of people were saying the same thing at that time. He was a good travelling teacher - I suspect he was very charismatic, or representative of a group of charismatic Jewish teachers.
Of course. His entire life was the answer to Jewish teachings. But he did take exception to added traditions of the priesthood, referring to the priests as "blind guides" according to Matthew 23:16.
0 Replies
 
saab
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Dec, 2015 04:02 am
Christmas is what we see as Christmas

https://linneahanell.files.wordpress.com/2012/12/24.jpg?w=896
0 Replies
 
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Dec, 2015 04:25 am
@Walter Hinteler,
My understanding was a tree was affixed to the top of the house to attract friendly spirits to help through the worst of winter, the winter solstice. mainly in Germany, wasn't it?
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Dec, 2015 05:21 am
@Ionus,
Ionus wrote:
My understanding was a tree was affixed to the top of the house to attract friendly spirits to help through the worst of winter, the winter solstice. mainly in Germany, wasn't it?
Well, I don't want to judge your understanding, but inside a cathedral or a room isn't really on top of a house.

Ireally would like to get the source where it is noted that a Christmas tree attracted friendly spirits to help through the worst of winter. Must have been pre late Medieval times. And perhaps noted in some archives unknown here.
Tes yeux noirs
 
  2  
Reply Sun 20 Dec, 2015 06:03 am
I seem to have read somewhere that the so-called "traditional" British Christmas (tree, Santa, etc) was, like so many other "traditional" UK things, faked up in the 19th century, and that a lot of the responsibility lies with Prince Albert.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Dec, 2015 06:15 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:
Well, I don't want to judge your understanding, but inside a cathedral or a room isn't really on top of a house.


The -as far as I could find out meanwhile - first source naming a Christmas tree in Germany is from 1419, in Freiburg (Black Forest): the baker guilt ereacted a fir tree with nuts and apples for children (but these weren't allowed to get before Epiphany). The one in Strasburg (on the other side of the Rhine) was quoted in a source from 1539.

The first source for a Christmas tree in Germany on a public place is from 1521: in Schlettstadt (north of Strasburg in Alsace) the town's foresters had to guard the fir trees that they weren't stolen. (Item IIII schillinge dem foerster die meyen an sanct Thomas tag zu hieten.)

I couldn't find any source that the tree had been affixed to the top of a house. Even the branches, which used before a tree became common, were put in/on the doors. And the latter weren't used attract "friendly spirits to help through the worst of winter" but as a sign of life even in winter to keep witches and demons out. (Johann Geiler von Kaysersberg, one of the greatest of the popular preachers of the 15th century, condemned this custom in some of his writings.)
0 Replies
 
saab
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Dec, 2015 06:15 am
@Ionus,
Regarding the winter solstice
I have not heard anything about a tree on top of the house in Scandinavia either.
Before Christianity in Sweden the juldrickandet - yuledrinking - which is the only tradition which actually is written down was some place at the end of october until middle of January. That sounds very practical as harvest, slaughtering and other farmer things were finished. But this celebration could also have happened between November 14th and December 14th and might have had something to do with solstice.
Year 425 BC solstice was the 25th of December. But the time moved slowly over the centuries.
Year 325 it was the 22nd of December
Year 11oo it was the 15th of December
Year 1500
This was changed in Sweden to the more correct gregorian calender year 1753.
So now wintersolstice is the 22nd just as year 325.
saab
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Dec, 2015 06:28 am
@saab,
http://prima.tv4play.se/multimedia/vman/VMan-P302/VMan-P3024400_DJ.jpg
Forget the trees and the what is on the door.
The two trees which only have the tops are some sort of festival decorations and goes back a long time. The branches which were taken off one put on the doorsteps - you can see it on the picture.
Indoors was hey on the floor.
It was all to make it look nicer and more welcome.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Dec, 2015 06:36 am
@Tes yeux noirs,
Albert's cousin, Ferdinand von Sachsen-Coburg-Gotha-Koháry, the husband of queen Mary II, introduced the German Christmas tree to Portugal.

The drawing below was done by Ferdinand (aka Fernando II) in 1848
http://i64.tinypic.com/i6d1mb.jpg
 

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