18
   

DNC vs Sanders. Is the DNC right to block Sander's access to DNC voter data?

 
 
revelette2
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Dec, 2015 03:16 pm
@Robert Gentel,
Quote:
, and pointing out past cases where they did not react this way to other clients is important because it could represent an attempt on their part to exert undue influence on the political process.


If there was never any proof, just hearsay from camp Obama and now this guy from Obama's old camp claiming prior incidents of their own, then the so called priors will be not really material evidence. If Sander's suit is still ongoing, I imagine in the coming weeks, a lot more information will be forthcoming from both the DNC and the company they use to keep campaign information files.

On all other points, I concede.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Dec, 2015 03:42 pm
@Lash,
Lash wrote:

Do you know what a kingmaker is?

You said:
Quote:
Each of the parties WILL be playing kingmakers, Robert, and they can do it without the voting being a sham.

Even kingmakers take popular opinion into account.

My guess is the "kingmakes" of the Democratic Party want Hillary Clinton as the nominee precisely because they think she has the better chance of winning; i.e.; that she will draw the most votes from the people. Their "kingmaking" is the result of NOT taking the voting as a sham.

If they thought for a second that Bernie Sanders would be a better draw...Bernie Sanders is who they would be trying to make "king." But I think they realize this country is simply not ready to vote for a self-styled socialist...even if the majority agree with damn near everything the guy stands for.

MY GUESS: If the conservatives of this country were able to be "kingmakers" for the Democrats right now...they would anoint Bernie Sanders in a micro-second. They would much, much, MUCH rather be running against him than Hillary.


Neither the DNC nor the RNC should pervert the will of the electorate and manipulate the process to select the front runner. Their job is to hear the will of the electorate and THEN use their power to support that choice.

The kingmaker scenario as you describe it is appalling and an affront to democracy.


Baloney.

Read my post. At no point did I talk about "shadowy groups" nor did I talk about "forcing" anything.

I quite clearly said that the votes of the people will dictate how these decision go.

The DNC is not going to pervert the will of the people, Lash. The DNC is going to use the rules of conduct that were in effect when this whole process started.

What you want to do is to pervert something...by changing the process in order to favor your person.

Let the process play out...and then do all the moaning and groaning you are sure to do...and play out that "I'm gonna take my ball and go home" scenario.

Bernie Sanders cannot win this election...although if he is nominated, I will work my butt off on his behalf, because that is what decent, good losers do in these kinds of situations.

Ask someone close to you to explain it to you. Maybe then you can get it.
Lash
 
  0  
Reply Sun 20 Dec, 2015 04:40 pm
@Frank Apisa,
A kingmaker is a "shadowy group:" a powerful person or group behind the scenes that uses influence to control royal or political succession.

You said, in effect, don't worry, the kingmaker will take popular opinion into account... As if the American people will relegate our right to make that choice to some oligarchs in a back room. This is precisely why a growing army of people say Bernie or Bust.

You also said:
Quote:
If they thought for a second that Bernie Sanders would be a better draw...Bernie Sanders is who they would be trying to make "king."


That is MY right. Not the DNC's. It is corruption that you support as evidenced by your statement.
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Dec, 2015 05:21 pm
@blatham,
OK, you agree that the use of the term syndicate was appropriate. By the way not all syndicates are criminal, though there is evidence that may not be the case with elements of the Clinton Foundation. Whatever connotations you find arise from these facts, not what I wrote. In this and other areas I think you are doing a little self-serving projecting.

As for "annointed queen" I believe the phrase was an apt, accurate description of her effective status in this campaign. Had Bill been able to run and been in her place I would have written annointed king. Would that have been sexist?

Palin never came close to the status Hillary has achieved as a presidential candidate in the Democrat party so your remarks there were merely a meaningless distraction.

You appear to be very interested in finding nuance suggestive (to you) of violations of a somewhat evangelical code of political correctitude and believe that you are in a position to pass judgment on the nonsense that results. I find both a bit strange.

You also appear to be much more knowledgable of what Rush Limbach writes and says than am I. I'll defer to you on all that stuff. I have limited time and taste for the noise of contemporary media commentary and prefer to focus more on slightly longer term sources.

"Gorilla dust" is a metaphor that's been around for many years. I recall hearing it used in a critique of debating styles as an undergraduate a long time ago. What's "urban" about it ? Should I accuse you of racism in regard to your reference to spinning on my head in Central Park.

In these and other areas I think you are stretching rather too far to make a point or find a good phrase. You can be much better than that and shouldn't stoop to such bullshit.

How big the "sliver" of the U.s. Population is attracted to Trump is something that neither you nor I know, your unfounded assertion notwithstanding. You may well be whistling in the dark here.
Robert Gentel
 
  2  
Reply Sun 20 Dec, 2015 05:29 pm
@Lash,
Lash wrote:
A kingmaker is a "shadowy group:" a powerful person or group behind the scenes that uses influence to control royal or political succession.


This is incorrect too. The definition of this term is when one single person or entity gets to make the decision that ends up making the difference. So if the vote is tied 1-1 and I get to vote I am kingmaker. Doesn't have to be shadowy, it is all about the being the decider due to circumstances.
0 Replies
 
Robert Gentel
 
  2  
Reply Sun 20 Dec, 2015 05:30 pm
@revelette2,
revelette2 wrote:
If there was never any proof, just hearsay from camp Obama and now this guy from Obama's old camp claiming prior incidents of their own, then the so called priors will be not really material evidence.


Sure, but if the DNC ignored the issue then that is precisely why we won't have any proof.
revelette2
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Dec, 2015 06:07 pm
@Robert Gentel,
It would depend on how long the company who keeps records, (forget the name right at this moment) keeps their records. If by chance they still have records from 2008, (doubtful)then there should be a log of when either the Hillary camp or the Obama camp accessed each others files. Also, did Obama bring the matter up to the DNC back in 2008 or just talk about it? If they just talked about it, then how can the DNC be accused of ignoring something which was never brought to their attention?
Robert Gentel
 
  4  
Reply Sun 20 Dec, 2015 06:14 pm
@revelette2,
I think we are getting into increasingly pointless areas of this discussion, but the Sanders breach was caught by the DNC so presumably they could have caught separate breaches as well.

In any case we don't have access to this proprietary system and it has likely changed over the years (08 is an eternity in tech years, though government tech tends to move much slower) so I can't really get into the specifics of what they can and cannot know.

I also don't think it matters at all, Sanders campaign was in the wrong according to the contract, the DNC suspension was wrong according to the contract and the situation is resolved.

My opinion about the DNC has suffered as a result of their handling of this, not because I think they are being unfair (I tend toward that belief but don't feel I understand the nuances well enough to be sure) but because this is just a clusterfuck of a situation that shouldn't ever have happened. The vendor is a joke, the vendor is not impartial and there is so much conflict of interest involved that my main qualm is this crappy vendor's database and the power its gatekeepers wield.
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Dec, 2015 06:36 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Trying to clarify why I used "shadowy group" in my response.

I'd used it as my descriptor previously, replacing kingmaker.

Frank said:
Read my post. At no point did I talk about "shadowy groups" nor did I talk about "forcing" anything.

So, now I'm curious. The word kingmaker does carry the negative, shadowy connotation I used at least for me. I'm not sure if my definition is wrong or if Robert was separating kingmaker from its connotation to be more pure in his remarks.

So, passers-by, tell me.

Are there uses of the word kingmaker that portray influencing a royal or political succession with no hint of dishonesty or self-gain for the kingmaker? I've always thought there was a universally recognized neg connotation.

cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Dec, 2015 07:01 pm
@blatham,
Trump supporters are less educated and earn less than the average republican.
Just type <trump supporters less educated> and you'll get thousands of hits.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  0  
Reply Sun 20 Dec, 2015 07:03 pm
@Lash,
Lash wrote:

A kingmaker is a "shadowy group:" a powerful person or group behind the scenes that uses influence to control royal or political succession.

You said, in effect, don't worry, the kingmaker will take popular opinion into account... As if the American people will relegate our right to make that choice to some oligarchs in a back room. This is precisely why a growing army of people say Bernie or Bust.

You also said:
Quote:
If they thought for a second that Bernie Sanders would be a better draw...Bernie Sanders is who they would be trying to make "king."


That is MY right. Not the DNC's. It is corruption that you support as evidenced by your statement.


If I had as negative an opinion of this country as you have...I would leave it.

If I had as negative an opinion of life in general as you have...I would leave that also.
blatham
 
  2  
Reply Sun 20 Dec, 2015 07:21 pm
@georgeob1,
"I think you are doing a little self-serving projecting."

Why on earth would I engage in projection that isn't self-serving? Do you think me some sort of fool?

"Anointed" and "queen". The first, as I said, has no precedent use I know of before Limbaugh's "the Anointed One". As to "anointed king", have you ever used that phrase anywhere for any reason? The sexist component in movement conservatism is not really a deniable feature. Limbaugh has been just one exemplar. The notions held, as a theological matter, by southern Baptists re the proper power dynamics of male and female are explicit. And there's a broader history of denigration of Hillary because of her gender, eg, that being a key feature in right wing attacks on her in Bill's first term during her initiatives to establish "Hillarycare". But it is the case that sexist notions/values are not restricted to the American right even if that's where we find them predominantly.

In the minds of millions of conservatives, Palin was regarded just as I've said. You may not have followed her Facebook page with all it's rich plaudits from such conservatives, but I did. Perhaps, too, you missed the postings from her fans all over the internet ("you libtards are scared to death of Sarah", etc). She was the VP nominee for the GOP. That key piece of history is worthy of attention. And surely you understand that the leap from Palin to Trump is really no leap at all.

Nuance in language is eminently worthy of close attention whether its source is a political speech/copy writer, a car salesman, a fellow at the bar hitting on your daughter, a con man, a comic, a marketing campaign or what have you. Much of what is communicated in any speech act uses nuance as vehicle.

I do attend to Rush (and much else in the right wing media universe) and have for a long while. When you wish to understand a thing, you have to put in the time.

"Gorilla dust". That's interesting. I had never bumped into the term before and could make no sense of it thinking of its two components. I found a definition in an urban dictionary. I'll allow that it had currency before and outside of that dictionary's suggestion but it certainly is also the case that I found the notion of you spinning on your head in Central Park quite delightful. I even pictured your wife and daughter nearby wearing hoodies and holding a boombox. I will not permit you to take those delightful images away from me.

Re who is supporting Trump. That is actually understood in some detail. Lots of polling has been done on this. Simply type "who supports Donald Trump" into a google search and that data will be provided to you, should you care to investigate. I trust you don't really imagine he would fare well in a general election? Particularly this coming one.
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Dec, 2015 07:26 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Despite your suggestion that I kill myself, LOL I will continue to live. But don't let me stop you...

Do you tell blacks to go back to Africa - Chinese-Americans, back to China?

Be ashamed.
blatham
 
  2  
Reply Sun 20 Dec, 2015 07:33 pm
@blatham,
ps... I suppose I ought to add that I had/have no intention of saying anything to you here that is designed to be tricky or deceitful. I think writing should be, to the degree one can manage it, interesting, original and entertaining but that's as far as I stretch the thing. No good can come of that other stuff.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Dec, 2015 07:35 pm
@Lash,
Lash wrote:

Despite your suggestion that I kill myself, LOL I will continue to live. But don't let me stop you...


I didn't suggest you kill yourself, Lash. What I said could easily be interpreted to mean you ought to get out of that black hole you are living in.

And I have a very positive outlook on life...so I have no black holes to climb out of.

Quote:
Do you tell blacks to go back to Africa - Chinese-Americans, back to China?


No.

But if a black or Chinese-American were to complain about America as often and vehemently as you do...I would suggest they consider moving elsewhere.

You ought to consider it.

Living here obviously is detrimental to your mental health.


Quote:
Be ashamed.


My beloved GIANTS just lost a game I really, really, really wanted them to win. Although I have a very positive outlook on life...right at this moment I couldn't care less what I say to someone like you.

Okay?
Lash
 
  0  
Reply Sun 20 Dec, 2015 07:50 pm
@Frank Apisa,
If a football game can rule your life like that, you're projecting your emptiness on me. Own your own misery.
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Dec, 2015 08:43 pm
How the DNC is being affected by Debbie Wasserman Schultz' tenure at the helm.

http://reverbpress.com/politics/if-debbie-wasserman-schultz-doesnt-leave-i-will/
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Dec, 2015 08:48 pm
@Lash,
Lash wrote:
I've always thought there was a universally recognized neg connotation.


given that Gandhi was seen as a kingmaker, I'd say there is not a universally recognized negative connotation

a thousand years ago, I was taught that the key to the kingmaker function was that the person/group in the role could not become king and would not benefit directly

The US v.p. is a kingmaker of sorts as the person in that role has the tie-breaking vote in the Senate.

i.e. http://www.npr.org/sections/itsallpolitics/2015/03/19/393658619/a-first-for-joe-biden-could-break-tie-for-attorney-general

Biden can't be attorney general. Not sure if there would be any direct benefit to him in the result of the vote (if it happened).
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  2  
Reply Sun 20 Dec, 2015 09:40 pm
Off topic, certainly...

Inspired by these times and the season, I decided to work on a Muslim Christmas carol. If I can find some way to bridge this gap between faith communities, I think I ought to try.

I'm just into the task a bit, so far. There'll be a story where a family is awoken by a clatter on their roofs. They'll go out and look. It will be a bunch of camels. Chorus - Allah ahkbar Allah Allah ahkbar. Bells in the background.
0 Replies
 
revelette2
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Dec, 2015 09:48 pm
@Robert Gentel,
Quote:
think we are getting into increasingly pointless areas of this discussion, but the Sanders breach was caught by the DNC so presumably they could have caught separate breaches as well.


You made quite a few definitive statements on priors for something you now say "presumably." But in any case, you are right, we have gone as far as we can with this.

If Bernie Sanders has dropped the lawsuit, more likely nothing more will come will come of this.

 

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