53
   

The rules are changing, we are going to start showing the assholes the door

 
 
layman
 
  -2  
Reply Fri 15 Jun, 2018 07:49 am
Kinda brings to mind what the great bluesman, R. L. Burnside, once said, to wit:

Quote:
I didn't mean to kill nobody. I just meant to shoot the sonofabitch in the head and two times in the chest. Him dying was between him and the Lord.


layman
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 15 Jun, 2018 07:52 am
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:

If there was clear reason to believe that he was in fact only trying to kill the fleas, I would hope that any punishment would take his motivation into account and not pretend that he had a more sinister motive.


Well, ya know, it would be hard to find a "clear reason" to believe that, but even if you did, as I understand it the law says that you "intend" all the clearly foreseeable consequences of your actions.
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Fri 15 Jun, 2018 08:00 am
@layman,
layman wrote:
Kinda brings to mind what the great bluesman, R. L. Burnside once said, to wit:
Quote:
I didn't mean to kill nobody. I just meant to shoot the sonofabitch in the head and two times in the chest. Him dying was between him and the Lord.
Depraved heart murder isn't exactly nothing. In Michigan that would get this Orkin man a 30 to 90 year prison sentence. 10 years less if it was a plea bargain. A lot more if he already had a bad criminal record.

But anyway, if a killer can present a good case that they didn't kill with premeditation, so be it. People should be judged according to the facts.
layman
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 15 Jun, 2018 08:02 am
With them chanting "Death to America" 24/7, it wouldn't bother me if we nuked every major city in Iran and every patch of desert in between, too.

But I wouldn't hypocritically try to claim that I was only trying to disable their military forces.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Fri 15 Jun, 2018 08:03 am
@layman,
layman wrote:
as I understand it the law says that you "intend" all the clearly foreseeable consequences of your actions.
If you intentionally kill someone, that's murder. If you negligently kill someone, that's manslaughter.
layman
 
  -2  
Reply Fri 15 Jun, 2018 08:05 am
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:

Depraved heart murder isn't exactly nothing. In Michigan that would get this Orkin man a 30 to 90 year prison sentence.


Well, I take that to mean that you agree with my original statement that the Orkin Man wouldn't be immune from punishment, then, eh?
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 Jun, 2018 08:06 am
@Walter Hinteler,
It was not just the Germans of course. Everybody was doing it, especially in faraway lands onto them 'savages'.
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 15 Jun, 2018 08:08 am
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:

If you intentionally kill someone, that's murder. If you negligently kill someone, that's manslaughter.


Well, OK, to be precise I should have said that you are deemed have intended the foreseeable consequences of your deliberate actions. How's that?
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Fri 15 Jun, 2018 08:09 am
@layman,
layman wrote:
Well, I take that to mean that you agree with my original statement that the Orkin Man wouldn't be immune from punishment, then, eh?
Correct. But if the facts truly showed that the killings were reckless and not intentional, I would argue that the punishment should be for reckless killing and not deliberate killing.
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Fri 15 Jun, 2018 08:11 am
@layman,
layman wrote:
Well, OK, to be precise I should said that you are deemed have intended the foreseeable consequences of your deliberate actions. How's that?
That sounds OK.

But we didn't intend for the A-bombs to kill any civilians. The civilians were just in our way.
layman
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 15 Jun, 2018 08:13 am
@oralloy,
Well, I didn't make any claims about what the "punishment" for dropping the A-bombs should be. Well, actually I did. No punishment whatsoever was warranted.

But my point wasn't about punishment. It was about intent.
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  0  
Reply Fri 15 Jun, 2018 08:14 am
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:

But we didn't intend for the A-bombs to kill any civilians. The civilians were just in our way.


Yeah, just like the family was "in the way" of the Orkin Man getting his job done, eh?
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Fri 15 Jun, 2018 08:29 am
@layman,
layman wrote:
Yeah, just like the family was "in the way" of the Orkin Man getting his job done, eh?
Yes.
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  3  
Reply Fri 15 Jun, 2018 09:34 am
@layman,
Yep. Truth is always the first casualty in any war, and I think Oral is a bit too gullible re. miltary propaganda.
oralloy
 
  -4  
Reply Fri 15 Jun, 2018 09:56 am
@Olivier5,
No propaganda. It's a fact that Hiroshima contained tens of thousands of soldiers.

It's a fact that Hiroshima contained a vital military headquarters.

It's a fact that Nagasaki contained huge weapons factories.

It's a fact that Japan was putting up fierce resistance, and their resistance was only growing stronger as the war progressed.

You may not like these facts, but facts they are.
layman
 
  0  
Reply Fri 15 Jun, 2018 10:01 am
@oralloy,
The problem is, Roy, that none of those "facts" prove the argument you're trying to make. It's the facts which you ignore that allow you to keep repeating your spiel.
maporsche
 
  2  
Reply Fri 15 Jun, 2018 10:03 am
@layman,
Small problem...
layman
 
  -2  
Reply Fri 15 Jun, 2018 10:09 am
@layman,
Facts like these, reposted here for ease of reference, ya know?

layman wrote:

Quote:
In 1948, Truman told a group of advisors and generals that the atomic bomb was not a regular weapon of war, because, “it is used to wipe out women and children and unarmed people, and not for military uses.” (Diary entry of 21 July 1948, in David E. Lilienthal, Journals of David E. Lilienthal, Volume II: The atomic energy years, 1945-1950 (New York: Harper & Row, 1964), 390-391.)


Quote:
In the spring of 1945, the military convened a target committee, a mix of officers and scientists, to decide where the bomb should fall. Alex Wellerstein, a historian at the Stevens Institute of Technology, devoted his career to studying nuclear weapons and the decision to use them.

He notes that the Target Committee Meeting at Los Alamos in May 1945, it was recommended that “pure military” targets not be considered: “It was agreed that for the initial use of the weapon any small and strictly military objective should be located in a much larger area subject to blast damage” — that is, a city, an urban area — ...

The initial list included a remote military installation and Tokyo Bay, but the target committee decided those options wouldn't show the world the power of the new bomb. "They want people to understand that this is something different, and so picking a place that will showcase how different it is, is very important," Wellerstein says.

The committee settled on two "psychological" objectives of the first atomic bombing: to scare the Japanese into unconditional surrender and to impress upon the world the power of the new weapon.



The target committee decided the A-bomb had to kill. At the time, American bombers were already firebombing many cities, killing tens of thousands.

So, they decided this bomb would not just kill — it would do something biblical: One bomb, from one plane, would wipe a city off the map. It would be horrible. But they wanted it to be horrible, to end the war and to try to stop the future use of nuclear bombs.



https://www.npr.org/2015/08/06/429433621/why-did-the-u-s-choose-hiroshima

When the "psychological objective" is to "scare people," I think it's quite appropriate to call it "terrorism."


The military ordered that cites like Hiroshima, Nagasaki, and a few others selected by the "target committee" NOT be bombed, notwithstanding all these ominous military threats which you say were the primary objective.

They did it because they wanted to nuke "pristine" cities so there would be no confusion about just how much damage an A-bomb would do, all by itself.
oralloy
 
  -3  
Reply Fri 15 Jun, 2018 10:28 am
@layman,
layman wrote:
The problem is, Roy, that none of those "facts" prove the argument you're trying to make.
I think that showing that we targeted the Japanese military will prove that we targeted the Japanese military.

layman wrote:
It's the facts which you ignore that allow you to keep repeating your spiel.
Those facts do no harm to my position.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -3  
Reply Fri 15 Jun, 2018 10:29 am
@maporsche,
maporsche wrote:
Small problem...
What problem is that?
0 Replies
 
 

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