The rules are changing, we are going to start showing the assholes the door

@cicerone imposter,

cicerone imposter wrote:

Don't hold your breath.

You start that crap also, ci...and then cry that people on you.

You and Timur make a fine couple. Starting things they cannot finish.

0 Replies

@snood,

snood wrote:

Frank wrote:

Quote:
In fact, like all the rest of humanity...I love you.

Frank, this kind of treacly bullshit is exactly what I hate most about fake southern Christians that say "Well, bless your heart" when it's obvious they mean something else entirely. They have to say they love everyone because they see themselves as above mere mortal dislike or hate.

You'd make a good christian.

I thought the saying is designed not to be confrontational. Sort of like when a Black lady might reply to some boring anecdote with, "Hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm" (Don't that beat all!). Feigned interest possibly to not have a confrontation. I don't believe one must be honest with one's feelings when some do seem to have strong reactions to an honest reply.

0 Replies

@Frank Apisa,

You are a liar and a coward not to admit you started all this.

I just replied and I'll continue to do so as long as you pretend to be the good and civil guy.

It's obvious you lack the balls to admit you were wrong attacking me..

1 Reply

@timur,

timur wrote:

Frank wrote:
The atheists (of which there are many) here do not like my agnostic take...or the way I deal with their scorning, demeaning attitude toward the theists here.

Tough.

But they deserve every word I've ever sent their way.

The way you weasel through words is really despicable.

I don't give a rat's ass what agnosticism you profess and I've never have judged it.

You, on the other hand, always tell me that my atheism is this and that.

You cannot be more hypocrite than that..

C'mon, Timur. Don't let that sour look of your avatar rule you.

Smile once in a while.

And while you are at it...stop starting things you absolutely are incapable of finishing.

C'mon...smile. It won't hurt.

0 Replies

@Frank Apisa,

Frank Apisa wrote:

Robert...this is your site and I think whatever you do...you will be doing because you suppose it is for the best. My opinion on this, however, is that I seriously doubt anyone has ever left this site truly because of the above.

I've been accused of "harassing" individuals from this site.

And I know for a fact that some have left because of you, and that doesn't make you a horrible person just someone that came on a little strong for some people. It happens. I'm sure I've done it. This is leisure time for most people, I'm not someone to shy from any argument either but even a very mild mannered person was able to make this site completely unenjoyable for me by insisting on repeating arguments we already had with me to the point I couldn't talk about what I wanted anymore.

You frame it as a matter of intestinal fortitude and that's a macho way of looking at it that ignores that this is entertainment time for most people and more like a TV show, and if people don't like it they should be free to change the channel.

We can't always rub everyone the right way and in life they get to choose who they engage with more and who they engage with less. Having tools to better enable this will reduce overall friction.

Quote:

I have not! Nor am I egotistical enough to suppose for one second that I could do it.

Oh I'm sure you could if you put your mind to it, anyone can. I'm sure you also can unintentionally just by making someone think it's no longer worth their time.

Quote:

With a couple of people, I have offered arguments they simply cannot refute...particularly in the area of what passes for atheism here. As a result, they've taken their ball and gone home for a while.

In my personal opinion you sometimes offer your arguments too prevalently on this subject, not letting people get to the "agree to disagree" stage.

You can call it "they cannot refute" if you want, but it could also just be that they no longer wish to repeat their argument to the degree that you are willing to. That can be really annoying, where they've already had their say and you've had yours and neither is going to change each others's minds is a good time to move on, and when one party doesn't and the other wants to it can get really annoying.

Quote:

If this "blocking" feature is in response to "Daddy, he's saying nah, nah, nah to me"...you have been hoodwinked. The feature itself has the potential to drive out more people than it will save from being driven out.

Nah, it won't. But if it does there's an easy fix for that: revert the feature.

Quote:

The problem in this forum is that the community is too small...and the dominant clique has decided that they will rule over the others.

This is, indeed the problem. But I think you are wrong in thinking blocking will not improve it, I think you are having a bit of a gut reaction to knowing that some will block you.

Some are going to block me too Frank, if you have strong opinions it will happen. It's not gonna be the end of the world and will actually make our own experiences better too. What's the point of wasting keystrokes on someone who is already not listening?

There is a pernicious effect that the notion that we are preaching to the public has on the exchanges here where many times people are not talking to each other, they are using each other as springboards to talk to their perceived public. This is most definitely an often useful aspect of the site (after all, it is a many-to-many medium not a one-to-one medium) but when we lose sight of the fact that we are having conversations with real human beings on the other end friction occurs and this friction is a form of community attrition that contributes to smaller communities dominated by fewer individuals.

Quote:

Respectfully, you are kidding yourself here. You are enabling and strengthening the hand of the people who truly are destroying the site.

You have it backwards here, but we'll just have to see. I don't think I can convince you.

Quote:

Good luck with it. I'm here and will continue to be here.

I hope so, I think you'll eventually change your mind when you see it in practice versus the ambiguity of conceptual discussion and how we might both imagine the texture of the features being implemented differently.

1 Reply

@snood,

snood wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:

Robert Gentel wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
I have not done it...and I am not egotistical enough to suppose I could.

Are you egotistical enough to suppose you could drive someone from this forum?

Frank I like you, but you are wrong here and yes you have done it. That doesn't make you some kind of forum monster, I've probably done it more often than you have and it doesn't necessarily have to be by intent either.

You and I can sometimes come on a bit strong, we are opinionated. You have, in fact, come on a bit strong for some and when that made spending their time here less enjoyable than they thought it should be in order to spend their time here some have in fact chosen to leave.

It happens, and yes you have done it and yes you know how you can do less of it. We all do. It's not that big a deal to admit to it.

I'm going to disagree with you here, Robert.

I have not done it...NOR HAVE YOU.

If someone leaves...it is almost certainly not because of what you or I have said. It is much, much more likely they simply do not have the stomach for what happens in Internet discussions.

I can tell you without a doubt that people have left this forum suggesting that I have driven them from it...people who have posted comments to me and others that made the worst of mine look like the work of a saint.

Nobody ever drove anyone with any spine from this forum.

And as for the IGNORE...I have heard people put me on IGNORE who have had raging battles with others...in battles where both of the participants have said things I would not think of saying. They put me on IGNORE not because I am a cretin or troublemaker, but because I can argue reasonably on any of the matters that are important to me.

With the exception of one person (Setanta) who made a vocation of being insulting to me...I have kept my remarks on a relatively high plane in this forum.

The atheists (of which there are many) here do not like my agnostic take...or the way I deal with their scorning, demeaning attitude toward the theists here.

Tough.

But they deserve every word I've ever sent their way.

Once again...I will live with whatever changes you choose to make here...and continue to treat this forum with respect...(a lot more respect than I see some of the complainers showing)

...but I will not accept that I have driven anyone from this forum. If I have been as an excuse for people leaving...I suggest as respectfully as possible that they are lacking of the stomach for the kind of thing that goes on in EVERY Internet forum. That is all it has been: Using me as an excuse.

I will match my conduct and postings (with that one exception) with ANYONE in the place...and I am ready to begin the moment someone posts a comment I've made that is considered exceptionally insulting or demeaning.

Anyone???

Interesting. It appears what you're saying is there need be no individual accountability taken for any kind of offense bad enough to inspire someone to pack their bags and say "Enough, this is not worth it." If they leave, they "don't have the stomach".

What's interesting is that your refusal to see any personal culpability in sometimes stepping across lines of civility (except of course when you deem them to "deserve it") like most human beings will do from time to time, makes Robert's case that there need be some regulating authority to impose accountability.

Snood...post what you think I have said that crosses that line you want to draw for me.

And we can talk about it.

As far as I am concerned...anyone who left this forum....left because of their lack of stomach...not because of what I, you, or Robert said to them.

1 Reply

@timur,

timur wrote:

Frank wrote:
I've "finished" every one of these things you've ever started...and I will finish this one. In the meantime, you are a good guy. I like you. In fact, like all the rest of humanity...I love you.

Get control.

If you had ever finished everything, why are we still at it?

Your "control" thing is just a despicable way to demean people.

And you are a liar, as everybody knows.

Haven't finished with you yet.

You like to get bloodied up for a bit before skulking off. And I am accommodating you.

I am not a liar...and I try to demean people unless they beg for it.

Sorta like you do.

0 Replies

@timur,

Your tit-for-tat mentality is a pettiness that hurts us all in this linear discussion. When it's threaded I'm all for you guys going at it till you are blue in the face but in a linear discussion you are interrupting something for everyone by refusing to end a back-and-forth that is of no interest to anyone but you two.

1 Reply

@snood,

snood wrote:

Frank wrote:

Quote:
In fact, like all the rest of humanity...I love you.

Frank, this kind of treacly bullshit is exactly what I hate most about fake southern Christians that say "Well, bless your heart" when it's obvious they mean something else entirely. They have to say they love everyone because they see themselves as above mere mortal dislike or hate.

You'd make a good christian.

I love you too, Snood.

I love everyone. I guarantee if you came to New York and we met...you would see that I love you.

And I love Timur...although I understand that my mentioning that to him seems to putt him crazy.

1 Reply

Frank wrote:

C'mon, Timur. Don't let that sour look of your avatar rule you.

Smile once in a while.

And while you are at it...stop starting things you absolutely are incapable of finishing.

C'mon...smile. It won't hurt.

You are falling back on your clown side.

You have no idea if I smile or not but one thing is sure, I wouldn't share a pint with you.

The rest of your discourse is just inept.

0 Replies

@timur,

timur wrote:

You are a liar and a coward not to admit you started all this.

I am not a liar nor a coward....and I most assuredly did not start all this.

Are you hallucinating?

Quote:

I just replied and I'll continue to do so as long as you pretend to be the good and civil guy.

You actually started this with a snarky remark about not fighting with someone...because you only fight with one person (obviously me.)

I read it...ignored it. I let the remark be.

Then you came at me again...attacking me personally rather than dealing with what was being said.

I have no problem with you hallucinating...but you ought to keep in mind that the conversation is being recorded here...and anyone can go back and see who STARTED IT.

Quote:

It's obvious you lack the balls to admit you were wrong attacking me..

Yeah, you are hallucinating. Too bad that.

0 Replies

@Frank Apisa,

If you're incapable of seeing for yourself anytime you ever crossed a line with anyone in all the time you've been on this forum, it is really a fool's errand to expect someone else to change your mind.
I simply say you're like everyone else - or at least certainly not constitutionally better than everyone else - and everyone with a pulse who argues is bound to cross a line. It's that darn fallible human thing. But you've already stated repeatedly that - how did you put it? Oh yeah - you don't even have the requisite ego to even believe you're capable of it.
A fool's errand, I tell you.

0 Replies

@Robert Gentel,

That's ok, Robert, I'll go now to have a drink with friends..

0 Replies

@Frank Apisa,

Frank Apisa wrote:

I'm going to disagree with you here, Robert.

I have not done it...NOR HAVE YOU.

If someone leaves...it is almost certainly not because of what you or I have said. It is much, much more likely they simply do not have the stomach for what happens in Internet discussions.

I mean that's one way to look at it. You could also say that no restaurant has ever run someone away with bad food, they merely did not have the stomach for it.

It really depends on your perspective, if you think that they have some obligation to "stomach" your offerings or not.

I think this is their time and they should do with it what they choose, whether or not you choose to throw shade on them for not choosing to spend their time on other people than you or me.

Quote:

Nobody ever drove anyone with any spine from this forum.

The ole "no true Scotsman" is always a goodie.

Quote:

But they deserve every word I've ever sent their way.

Whether or not you think so they have the same ability as you to choose whether or not they want to spend their time reading it. Just as you might choose to use a spam filter on your email because you don't want to spend your time on that particular kind of content.

Quote:

Once again...I will live with whatever changes you choose to make here...and continue to treat this forum with respect...(a lot more respect than I see some of the complainers showing)

...but I will not accept that I have driven anyone from this forum. If I have been as an excuse for people leaving...I suggest as respectfully as possible that they are lacking of the stomach for the kind of thing that goes on in EVERY Internet forum. That is all it has been: Using me as an excuse.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree about this, you aren't going to find my arguments more convincing merely through force of repetition.

Quote:

I will match my conduct and postings (with that one exception) with ANYONE in the place...and I am ready to begin the moment someone posts a comment I've made that is considered exceptionally insulting or demeaning.

I don't think it's really a matter of tone being the big issue here though. In my opinion the only thing you might want to consider is just not engaging with people that you know do not want to engage with you, but ultimately that is your choice for now and when blocking comes that will be the way this is resolved between the various parties.

0 Replies

@Frank Apisa,

Frank Apisa wrote:

snood wrote:

Frank wrote:

Quote:
In fact, like all the rest of humanity...I love you.

Frank, this kind of treacly bullshit is exactly what I hate most about fake southern Christians that say "Well, bless your heart" when it's obvious they mean something else entirely. They have to say they love everyone because they see themselves as above mere mortal dislike or hate.

You'd make a good christian.

I love you too, Snood.

I love everyone. I guarantee if you came to New York and we met...you would see that I love you.

And I love Timur...although I understand that my mentioning that to him seems to putt him crazy.

And bless your heart.

0 Replies

@timur,

You are both still at it merely because neither of you have chosen to not still be at it. Either of you have the power to make a decision to no longer be at it and it is fine irony when people start arguing about whose fault it is that they are still arguing.

You can step away anytime you want just as can Frank and both of you guys can avoid dragging this topic into your personal dispute if you want to.

0 Replies

@Robert Gentel,

Robert Gentel wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
Robert...this is your site and I think whatever you do...you will be doing because you suppose it is for the best. My opinion on this, however, is that I seriously doubt anyone has ever left this site truly because of the above.

I've been accused of "harassing" individuals from this site.

And I know for a fact that some have left because of you...

What you know, Robert, is that some people reported that they left because of me. And I am saying they are full of it. They left not because I have been unduly rude or obstinate...because I have not been. They left because they do not have the stomach for Internet arguing.

I HAVE on dozens upon dozens of occasions suggested myself in various discussions that my opponent and I agree to disagree. To suggest I am not amenable to that is to grossly misrepresent how I conduct myself.

But with you and Snood both expressing opinions that I am "wrong" or whatever...perhaps I have been too much for the sensibilities of the people here.

So I offer this:

If five people (not a lot) come into this thread and ask me to leave the forum...I will do it. I will leave for a year...maybe come back next Christmas...maybe not.

All Timur or ci or Lash need to do is get two more people to come into the thread and ask me to leave A2K. If they don't I will assume they really want me here.

Under no circumstance, if I stay, will I change the way I post...because as far as I am concerned, I have been an asset...not a liability to the forum.

But...I am willing to allow just five people to make that decision...and I think they will. (I belong to other forums, so don't feel sorry, I will carry on quite nicely.) But the move might suggest what the blocking (or shunning) feature might actually do to the forum.

Let me say MERRY CHRISTMAS and a HAPPY NEW YEAR to all, if the five show up...and I stop posting.

3 Replies

Hello, folks
Give me some time to get caught up on all this.

I've been elsewhere for a long while but mainly helping Greg Sargent build up his Plumline community at the Washington Post. In 2009, Greg was hired on from TPM where I'd followed his work and I wanted to support him (a very good reporter/blogger) and the Wa Po move to incorporate the blogger format. As one of the original and regular supporters, it was possible for me to influence how that community formed up and to help establish productive codes of behavior. My previous years with Abuzz and Able2Know provided me with the knowledge and tools to help get it right.

I"m no longer contributing there (though still in touch with Greg) because some institutional component of the WP deemed it unacceptable that the free-wheeling community we'd created was incompatible with corporate goals or image. They inserted themselves and proceeded to screw things up. Worst of all, they were then unwilling to alter their policies regardless of what any of us in the community who had built that community said to them. I finally decided I had to withdraw my support.

Robert is a good guy. I'll help out as I can and once I get re-familiarized with present and future a2k goings-on. The only thing I'll ask in return is sexual favors. Spicy, please.

1 Reply

@Robert Gentel,

Robert Gentel wrote:

... and when I do I'll stop engaging with it...

And Lordy will have your back!

0 Replies

@Frank Apisa,

And Frank. . . I mean this wholeheartedly:

GO JINTS!

1 Reply

The rules are changing, we are going to start showing the assholes the door

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