32
   

Attacks in Paris Stadium, concert hall

 
 
Olivier5
 
  4  
Reply Tue 17 Nov, 2015 06:25 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
Quote:
You seem to have the mistaken idea that I am somehow criticizing France for it's response to the attack. I'm not at all.

No, I am just pointing out the US and UK responsibility in the rise of ISIS, and the fact that if you guys had listened to us, ISIS would not exist. It's a simple idea. You seem to think that debunking it requires a thorough analysis of Chirac's position prior to the invasion... Well, it doesn't. Stop muddling the issue.
revelette2
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Nov, 2015 07:04 am
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
Unfortunately, trying to understand and reason with them...is like trying to understand and reason with American extremists.

It ain't easy! And mostly, it ain't even possible.


Quote:
“If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle.”

― Sun Tzu, The Art of War


There are a lot of ways to fight and they don't all involve fighter jets and bombs though of course they are included.
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Nov, 2015 10:38 am
@izzythepush,
Yep.
0 Replies
 
Ragman
 
  2  
Reply Tue 17 Nov, 2015 11:16 am
@Olivier5,
Sad to say...IMHO this boils down to this...you can't bomb and expect to wipe out an idea. Bomb all the Al Quaedah and also remove the leadership of whatever extremist, despotic or terrorist movement ... and it'll popup again in another form..as did ISIS or Dash or whatever it's called now.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Nov, 2015 11:23 am
@Ragman,
Ragman wrote:

Sad to say...IMHO this boils down to this...you can't bomb and expect to wipe out an idea. Bomb all the Al Quaedah and also remove the leadership of whatever extremist, despotic or terrorist movement ... and it'll popup again in another form..as did ISIS or Dash or whatever it's called now.


Ya, but say what you will about the morality the fact is that in reality smacking the ass of the wayward child often works. If it does not then you do it again. And again till it works.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Nov, 2015 01:29 pm
Tonight's friendly football match between Germany and The Netherlands was cancelled (90 minutes before the start of the match) before the attacker(s) could get a chance. Fortunately.
Quehoniaomath
 
  -3  
Reply Tue 17 Nov, 2015 01:52 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Quote:
Tonight's friendly football match between Germany and The Netherlands was cancelled (90 minutes before the start of the match) before the attacker(s) could get a chance. Fortunately.


It is ALL LIES including this, to scare us enough so that we are very eager to give our freedoms away!
(not that it is not canceled, of course it is, but the reasons given were a lie, we live in an ocean of lies.)

It is ALL staged! Including this.



Resarch Freemasonry and especially it's motto:

http://gnosticwarrior.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/33-Freemasonry.jpg

Now, a huge number of hing ranking people are high ranking freemasons!

The CHAOS is created by THEM so they can creater any ORDER they want or need.

But be carefull, the net is momentarily flooded with agents, trying to sabotaging the waking up of people to this.



0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Tue 17 Nov, 2015 02:04 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Most of Hannover's inner city's subway stations are closed, but trains still running.
BillRM
 
  0  
Reply Tue 17 Nov, 2015 02:30 pm
@Ragman,
.
Quote:
IMHO this boils down to this...you can't bomb and expect to wipe out an idea


Oh, the idea of a Japanese empire was wiped out, the idea of a German control world was wiped out and the idea of the CSA was wiped out all by sheer force.

Wiping out the idea of the middle east control by ISIS would be a cake walk compare to the forces needed to wiped out any of the examples above for all time.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Nov, 2015 02:37 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
From the press conference going on in the moment: there were several informations which became most severe in the early evening.
According to some media, it came from "a foreign secret service", the federal and state interior minister gave (and still give) no details.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Nov, 2015 03:27 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
According to various media: at first there were sincere hints that a group led by a known North African could be plotting an attack. The infos were about explosive belts, automatic weapons and explosives at the entrances and exits of the stadium. Then, the French intelligence gave infos about an Iraqi 'sleeper' who was said to have planned an attack on the friendly match.

No explosives were found until now, no-one has been arrest.
Trains are running (nearly) normal, massive police forces everywhere in Hannover.
0 Replies
 
Builder
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Nov, 2015 03:32 pm
@Olivier5,
Quote:
We MUST destroy ISIS before they win over the state of Iraq, before they grow deadlier, before they put their hand onto something really dangerous like chemical weapons or (god forbid) a nuclear weapon.


Call them Daesh. They don't like it at all. The easiest way to defeat any force, is to cut the supply trail. Where are they getting their money from? Their arms and munitions? Those shiny new toyotas they're getting around in?

President Putin exposed the many nations who are either directly or indirectly funding Daesh. It's no secret.

Neither is the motivation for funding them. Syria's overthrow and the takeover of the Golan heights, and control of the gas pipeline, so that Russia will no longer control the LNG supply to the EU.

None of this is news to anyone with a pulse, and a rational ability to put the pieces together.

Bombing Syria isn't the answer. Daesh isn't a place, or a people. It's a movement; a well-epuipped geurrilla militia. Without the funds, the arms, the intel, and the endless munitions supplied by the west (yes, the Saudis I consider westerners now) their reign is over.

0 Replies
 
puzzledperson
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Nov, 2015 04:04 pm
@Olivier5,
The farce continues. Four bombers with suicide vests so ineffective that they produce only a single civilian death. Videos of a shootout with police outside the Bataclan concert hall, and of the initial shooting inside by attackers, the audio of which clearly rules out firing by fully automatic weapons (at minimum, semi-auto is selected).

What are these fearsome military capabilities that the media keeps claiming? Anyone can do a drive-by shooting with semi-automatic rifles. Given three guys with high-capacity magazines, multiple magazines, and three semi-automatic rifles, a large crowd confined to an interior space, and nearly three hours (!) to act, ANYBODY can cause mass casualties.

Is this ISIS? Because in the Middle East, suicide vests cause mass casualties; so do machine guns. And grenades. And IEDs that actually explode with force.
BillRM
 
  0  
Reply Tue 17 Nov, 2015 04:31 pm
@puzzledperson,
An you point is what we should leave them alone as they are fairly harmless instead of wiping them off the face of the earth with overwhelming force?
Olivier5
 
  3  
Reply Tue 17 Nov, 2015 05:10 pm
@Ragman,
Ragman wrote:

Sad to say...IMHO this boils down to this...you can't bomb and expect to wipe out an idea. Bomb all the Al Quaedah and also remove the leadership of whatever extremist, despotic or terrorist movement ... and it'll popup again in another form..as did ISIS or Dash or whatever it's called now.

We can't bomb an idea but we can force ISIS underground, where they would not have access to the oil trade and the million dollars that they can access now. We can prevent the collapse of the Iraqi state. We can also severely reduce ISIS' allure by showing that they can be easily beaten. Currently many Muslims think of them as invincible due to Allah's support, and this allure helps them recruit. Finally, the only way to stop the influx of Syrian refugees is to bring back some stability to the place. So over and beyond retaliation for the attacks, there are many reasons why we (the West, with Russia) should try and destroy ISIS.
Olivier5
 
  2  
Reply Tue 17 Nov, 2015 05:12 pm
@puzzledperson,
Sure, and 9/11 was a CIA plot... Yada yada yada. All this is paranoid delirium.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Nov, 2015 05:15 pm
@Olivier5,
Quote:
The Russian air force just pulled off one of the biggest and most complex heavy bomber missions in modern history—sending no fewer than 25 Backfire, Bear, and Blackjack bombers on a coordinated, long-range air raid against alleged ISIS forces in Syria.

The Tuesday mission, which launched under the cover of darkness from a base in Ossetia in southern Russia, signalled a significant escalation of Moscow’s air war in Syria—and heralded the rebirth of Russian heavy bomber squadrons that once had withered from a lack of funding.

Gen. Valery Gerasimov, chief of Russia’s general staff, announced the raid on Tuesday, calling it part of “a new plan [for] the air campaign.”

During a massive airstrike today, 14 important ISIL targets were destroyed by 34 air-launched cruise missiles,” Gerasimov said, using an alternative acronym for the terror army. “The targets destroyed include command posts that were used to coordinate ISIL activities in the provinces of Idlib and Aleppo, munition and supply depots in the northwestern part of Syria.”

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/11/17/russia-pounds-isis-with-biggest-bomber-raid-in-decades.html

Putin loves showing off his military, but 25 long range bombers to toss in 34 missiles? Not practical in any sense of the word. But the show baby! This guy Putin sounds a lot like Trump.
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Nov, 2015 05:25 pm
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:
I don't really care what they like or not like. Sunnis can decide to do whatever they want.

We need to care though. Because if the Sunnis are given a choice between "Islamic State" and "being massacred by the Shia" they will choose Islamic State every single time. They don't like Islamic State, but they like the idea of being massacred by the Shia even less.

If we go and topple Islamic State only to have the Sunnis reconstitute them a week after we leave the area, what will we have achieved?

If we want to truly restore order to the area, we will need to provide the Sunnis with a non-IS option for survival after we leave.
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Tue 17 Nov, 2015 05:30 pm
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:
the West, with Russia

That might be tricky. Russia is backing Assad. Siding with them would mean letting (or even helping) Assad commit genocide against his own people.
Olivier5
 
  2  
Reply Tue 17 Nov, 2015 05:40 pm
@hawkeye10,
I have said for months that the West's approach to Syria/ISIS was timid and unrealistic. Helping the "moderate opposition" to Assad and requesting Assad's departure, = the line followed by the US and France so far, is just wishful thinking. The secular opposition to Assad has all but vanished, meaning that, in spite of all the blood on his hands, Assad now represents the only significant secular force in Syria, with the possible exception of the Kurds.

Unlike others, Russia has put troops in Syria and is therefore able to act much more decisively than the US and France. And now Putin has finally understood that ISIS is well worth bombing too (their strikes so far had focussed on the immediate threat to the zone controlled by the Assad regime, i.e. Al Nusra, which indirectly helped ISIS grab new territory). This change is apparently because of the downing of the Russian plane in Sinai is now certain to be a terrorist attack, probably from ISIS.

This means that Russia has de facto become a key potential military ally for France. Hollande understands that. He flew to Moscow to meet with Putin today and they made deals. The French forces are going to coordinate with the Russian forces directly, share intel, etc. All this goes in the right direction.

Now Hollande needs to convince the US that working with Russia and the Assad regime is a necessity. It won't be easy but it's the only realistic way forward.
 

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