2
   

Unfit for Command

 
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 Aug, 2004 10:37 am
Again the NYT report ... (I'd seen the graph but hadnt read the story yet). A wealth of info. Reading it, you can only wonder who's lying, flip-flopping and contradicting themselves here? For easy reference, I've bolded the individuals and quoted the questions on their actual claims ...

Quote:
Friendly Fire: The Birth of an Anti-Kerry Ad

[..] on close examination, the accounts of Swift Boat Veterans for Truth' prove to be riddled with inconsistencies. In many cases, material offered as proof by these veterans is undercut by official Navy records and the men's own statements.

Several of those now declaring Mr. Kerry "unfit" had lavished praise on him, some as recently as last year.

In an unpublished interview in March 2003 with Mr. Kerry's authorized biographer, Douglas Brinkley, [..] Roy F. Hoffmann, a retired rear admiral and a leader of the group, allowed that he had disagreed with Mr. Kerry's antiwar positions but said, "I am not going to say anything negative about him." He added, "He's a good man."

In a profile of the candidate that ran in The Boston Globe in June 2003, Mr. Hoffmann approvingly recalled the actions that led to Mr. Kerry's Silver Star: "It took guts, and I admire that."

George Elliott, one of the Vietnam veterans in the group, flew from his home in Delaware to Boston in 1996 to stand up for Mr. Kerry during a tough re-election fight, declaring at a news conference that the action that won Mr. Kerry a Silver Star was "an act of courage." At that same event, Adrian L. Lonsdale, another Vietnam veteran now speaking out against Mr. Kerry, supported him with a statement about the "bravado and courage of the young officers that ran the Swift boats."

"Senator Kerry was no exception," Mr. Lonsdale told the reporters and cameras assembled at the Charlestown Navy Yard. "He was among the finest of those Swift boat drivers."

Those comments echoed the official record. In an evaluation of Mr. Kerry in 1969, Mr. Elliott, who was one of his commanders, ranked him as "not exceeded" in 11 categories, including moral courage, judgment and decisiveness, and "one of the top few" - the second-highest distinction - in the remaining five. In written comments, he called Mr. Kerry "unsurpassed," "beyond reproach" and "the acknowledged leader in his peer group."

The Admiral Calls

It all began last winter [..]. Mr. Lonsdale received a call at his Massachusetts home from his old commander in Vietnam, Mr. Hoffmann, asking if he had seen the new biography of the man who would be president.

Mr. Hoffmann had commanded the Swift boats during the war from a base in Cam Ranh Bay and advocated a search-and-destroy campaign against the Vietcong - the kind of tactic Mr. Kerry criticized when he was a spokesman for Vietnam Veterans Against the War in 1971. Shortly after leaving the Navy in 1978, he was issued a letter of censure for exercising undue influence on cases in the military justice system.

Both Mr. Hoffmann and Mr. Lonsdale had publicly lauded Mr. Kerry in the past. But the book, Mr. Brinkley's "Tour of Duty," while it burnished Mr. Kerry's reputation, portrayed the two men as reckless leaders whose military approach had led to the deaths of countless sailors and innocent civilians. Several Swift boat veterans compared Mr. Hoffmann to the bloodthirsty colonel in the film "Apocalypse Now" - the one who loves the smell of Napalm in the morning.

The two men were determined to set the record, as they saw it, straight. [..]

Mr. Hoffmann's phone calls led them to Texas and to John E. O'Neill, who at one point commanded the same Swift boat in Vietnam, and whose mission against [Kerry] dated to 1971 [..]

About 10 veterans met in Ms. Spaeth's office in Dallas in April to share outrage and plot their campaign against Mr. Kerry, she and others said. Mr. Lonsdale, who did not attend, said the meeting had been planned as "an indoctrination session." [..]

"That was an awakening experience," Ms. Spaeth said. "Not just for me, but for many of them who had not heard each other's stories."

The group decided to hire a private investigator to investigate Mr. Brinkley's account of the war - to find "some neutral way of actually questioning people involved in these incidents,'' Mr. O'Neill said.

But the investigator's questions did not seem neutral to some.

Patrick Runyon, who served on a mission with Mr. Kerry, said he initially thought the caller was from a pro-Kerry group, and happily gave a statement about the night Mr. Kerry won his first Purple Heart. The investigator said he would send it to him by e-mail for his signature. Mr. Runyon said the edited version was stripped of all references to enemy combat, making it look like just another night in the Mekong Delta.

"It made it sound like I didn't believe we got any returned fire," he said. "He made it sound like it was a normal operation. It was the scariest night of my life." [..]

The Questions

[..] The group's arguments have foundered on other contradictions. In the television commercial, Dr. Louis Letson looks into the camera and declares, "I know John Kerry is lying about his first Purple Heart because I treated him for that injury." Dr. Letson does not dispute the wound - a piece of shrapnel above Mr. Kerry's left elbow - but he and others in the group argue that it was minor and self-inflicted.

Yet Dr. Letson's name does not appear on any of the medical records for Mr. Kerry. Under "person administering treatment" for the injury, the form is signed by a medic, J. C. Carreon, who died several years ago. Dr. Letson said it was common for medics to treat sailors with the kind of injury that Mr. Kerry had and to fill out paperwork when doctors did the treatment.

Asked in an interview if there was any way to confirm he had treated Mr. Kerry, Dr. Letson said, "I guess you'll have to take my word for it."

The group also offers the account of William L. Schachte Jr., a retired rear admiral who says in the book that he had been on the small skimmer on which Mr. Kerry was injured that night in December 1968. He contends that Mr. Kerry wounded himself while firing a grenade.

But the two other men who acknowledged that they had been with Mr. Kerry, Bill Zaladonis and Mr. Runyon, say they cannot recall a third crew member. "Me and Bill aren't the smartest, but we can count to three," Mr. Runyon said in an interview. And even Dr. Letson said he had not recalled Mr. Schachte until he had a conversation with another veteran earlier this year and received a subsequent phone call from Mr. Schachte himself.

Mr. Schachte did not return a telephone call, and a spokesman for the group said he would not comment.

The Silver Star was awarded after Mr. Kerry's boat came under heavy fire from shore during a mission in February 1969. According to Navy records, he turned the boat to charge the Vietcong position. [..]

The group says Mr. Kerry himself wrote the reports that led to the medal. But Mr. Elliott and Mr. Lonsdale, who handled reports going up the line for recognition, have previously said that a medal would be awarded only if there was corroboration from others and that they had thoroughly corroborated the accounts.

"Witness reports were reviewed; battle reports were reviewed," Mr. Lonsdale said at the 1996 news conference, adding, "It was a very complete and carefully orchestrated procedure." In his statements Mr. Elliott described the action that day as "intense" and "unusual."

According to a citation for Mr. Kerry's Bronze Star, a group of Swift boats was leaving the Bay Hap river when several mines detonated, disabling one boat and knocking a soldier named Jim Rassmann overboard. In a hail of enemy fire, Mr. Kerry turned the boat around to pull Mr. Rassmann from the water. [..]

But the group says that there was no enemy fire, and that while Mr. Kerry did rescue Mr. Rassmann, the action was what anyone would have expected of a sailor, and hardly heroic. Asked why Mr. Rassmann recalled that he was dodging enemy bullets, a member of the group, Jack Chenoweth, said, "He's lying." [..]

Several veterans insist that Mr. Kerry wrote his own reports, pointing to the initials K. J. W. on one of the reports and saying they are Mr. Kerry's. "What's the W for, I cannot answer," said Larry Thurlow, who said his boat was 50 to 60 yards from Mr. Kerry's. Mr. Kerry's middle initial is F, and a Navy official said the initials refer to the person who had received the report at headquarters, not the author.

A damage report to Mr. Thurlow's boat shows that it received three bullet holes, suggesting enemy fire, and later intelligence reports indicate that one Vietcong was killed in action and five others wounded, reaffirming the presence of an enemy. Mr. Thurlow said the boat was hit the day before. He also received a Bronze Star for the day, a fact left out of "Unfit for Command."

Asked about the award, Mr. Thurlow said that he did not recall what the citation said but that he believed it had commended him for saving the lives of sailors on a boat hit by a mine. If it did mention enemy fire, he said, that was based on Mr. Kerry's false reports. The actual citation, Mr. Thurlow said, was with an ex-wife with whom he no longer has contact, and he declined to authorize the Navy to release a copy. But a copy obtained by The New York Times indicates "enemy small arms," "automatic weapons fire" and "enemy bullets flying about him." The citation was first reported by The Washington Post on Thursday. [..]
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 Aug, 2004 10:52 am
Quote:
Where do you detect hysteria? I will very calmly send my donation LOL. Just heard that 44% of Independents are now leaning towards President Bush as a direct result of these great ads. So I will enclose the check in a "thank you" card


Yeah, I heard that same quote. But where did that number come from? Because I heard it on Fox News, which gives it.... yaknow.... a little bit of a suspicious bend to me...

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 Aug, 2004 10:57 am
The Bush campaign has broken that law in Florida and in Minnesota.

So the question of legality has been answered. What's the punishment going to be?[/quote]

LOL, talk about being irrational! No laws have been broken and furthermore, President Bush isn't going around whining about F/11. If anyone has a right to complain, he does. Fortunately, most people who can actually THINK know that the lump known as M. Moore is not only a flat-out liar, but a manipulating one at that.

If wanting a few questions answered about Hanoi John's ACTUAL service record (including details of his scratches..I mean, wounds) seems to some to be a "bitterly divided country", Mr. Heinz-Kerry can easily remedy that. If the actual record matches what he's been bragging about, then I'll eat my keyboard and say no more.

The only thing I'm bitter about is being kept in the dark and left to wonder what it is in those records that he wants kept quiet.

For those that are going to counter with some nasty barb about President Bush's record, save your typing and remember who is doing all the bragging and lying about his four months of brave service. Just tell me what it is he's hiding.
0 Replies
 
BumbleBeeBoogie
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 Aug, 2004 12:18 pm
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 Aug, 2004 12:37 pm
And the Tribune article introducing Rood's story summarizes:

Quote:
Swift boat skipper: Kerry critics wrong
Tribune editor breaks long silence on Kerry record; fought in disputed battle


The commander of a Navy swift boat who served alongside Democratic presidential candidate John Kerry during the Vietnam War stepped forward Saturday to dispute attacks challenging Kerry's integrity and war record.

William Rood, an editor on the Chicago Tribune's metropolitan desk, said he broke 35 years of silence about the Feb. 28, 1969, mission that resulted in Kerry's receiving a Silver Star because recent portrayals of Kerry's actions published in the best-selling book "Unfit for Command" are wrong and smear the reputations of veterans who served with Kerry.

Rood, who commanded one of three swift boats during that 1969 mission, said Kerry came under rocket and automatic weapons fire from Viet Cong forces and that Kerry devised an aggressive attack strategy that was praised by their superiors. [..]

"It's gotten harder and harder for those of us who were there to listen to accounts we know to be untrue, especially when they come from people who were not there," Rood said in a 1,700-word first-person account published in Sunday's Tribune.

Rood's recollection of what happened on that day at the southern tip of South Vietnam was backed by key military documents, including his citation for a Bronze Star he earned in the battle and a glowing after-action report written by the Navy captain who commanded his and Kerry's task force, who is now a critic of the Democratic candidate. [..]

Ambush scenario

In February 1969, Rood was a lieutenant junior grade commanding PCF-23, one of the three 50-foot aluminum swift boats that carried troops up the Dong Cung, a tributary of the Bay Hap River. Kerry commanded another boat, PCF-94 and Lt. j.g. Donald Droz, who was killed in action six weeks later, commanded PCF-43. Ambushes from Viet Cong fighters were common because the noise from boats, powered by twin diesel engines, practically invited gunfire. Ambushes, Rood said, "were a virtual certainty."

Before this day's mission, though, Kerry, the tactical commander of the mission, discussed with Rood and Droz a change in response to the anticipated ambushes: If possible, turn into the fire once it is identified and attack the ambushers, Rood recalled Kerry saying. The boats followed that new tactic with great success, Rood said, and the mission was highly praised.

In the book "Unfit for Command," Kerry's critics maintained otherwise. The book's authors, John O'Neill and Jerome Corsi, wrote that Kerry's attack on the Viet Cong ambush displayed "stupidity, not courage." [..]

In the book, O'Neill and Corsi said Kerry chased down a "young Viet Cong in a loincloth … clutching a grenade launcher which may or may not have been loaded."

Rood recalled the fleeing Viet Cong was "a grown man, dressed in the kind of garb the VC usually wore." There were other attackers as well, he said, and his boat and Kerry's boat took significant fire.

After the attack, the task force commanding officer, then-Capt. Roy Hoffmann, sent a message of congratulations to the three swift boats, saying their charge of the ambushers was a "shining example of completely overwhelming the enemy" and that it "may be the most efficacious [method] of dealing with small numbers of ambushers," Rood said.

In the official after-action message, obtained by the Tribune, Hoffmann wrote that the tactics developed and executed by Kerry, Rood and Droz were "immensely effictive [sic]" and that "this operation did unreparable [sic] damage to the enemy in this area."

"Well done," Hoffmann concluded in his message.

Change of story

But more than three decades later, Hoffmann, now a retired rear admiral, has changed his story. Today he is one of Kerry's most vocal critics, saying the attacks against the ambushers 35 years ago call into question Kerry's judgment and show his tendency to be impulsive. [..]

Asked for his response to Rood's account, O'Neill argued that the former swift boat skipper's version of events is not substantially different from what appeared in his book. [..] He said the congratulatory note from Hoffmann was based on the belief that Kerry was under heavy fire from the Viet Cong. But O'Neill claimed that "didn't happen." Had Hoffmann known the true circumstances of events that day, O'Neill said, he would not have issued the congratulatory note.

[But in] his eyewitness account, Rood describes coming under rocket and automatic weapons fire from Viet Cong on the riverbank during two separate ambushes of his boat and Kerry's boat.

Praise for the mission led by Kerry came from Navy commanders who far outranked Hoffmann. Rood won a Bronze Star for his actions on that day. The Bronze Star citation from the late Adm. Elmo Zumwalt, then commander of U.S. Naval Forces, Vietnam, singled out the tactic used by the boats and said the Viet Cong were "caught completely off guard."

Longtime debate


Again, to quote Rood's own piece BBB just posted, when it comes to Kerry's Silver Star, the highest medal he was awarded and that is now impugned by the SVFT, he is a prime witness:

0 Replies
 
BumbleBeeBoogie
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 Aug, 2004 01:14 pm
Bush Steering Comt. member is also a Swiftboat smearer
Hullabaloo
Friday, August 20, 2004
Nothing To See Here

I wonder if its appropriate for Ken Cordier, a member of the Veterans For Bush-Cheney '04 steering committee to appear in the new "unaffiliated" "independent" 527 Swift Boat Liars For Bush ad?

Of course you will only see his name if you google the cached version (linked above) of the page on the Bush-Cheney web site. Oddly, the current page doesn't list his name.

Now I'm certain this fine gentleman who has chosen to sell out his good name and reputation by joining a filthy smear operaton like Scumbag Liars For Bush would never coordinate with the campaign just because he also served as one of the Vice-Chairs Of Veterans For Bush-Cheney National Coalition in the 2000 camapign (pdf) and then was named to Bush's VA-POW advisory committee.

But some might think it doesn't look quite kosher. In fact, some might think it looks downright illegal.

Update:

The campaign is already on to this and has sent out the following press release. What they didn't have, however, was this Google cache which shows that Cordier was listed as a member of the Bush-Cheney campaign until August 19th. (And, by the way, in case it's escaped anyone's notice, Mr Cordier has a Frenchman in the woodpile.)

To continue the details:

http://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2004_08_15_digbysblog_archive.html#109305910964449236
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 Aug, 2004 01:17 pm
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Navy Commander, Journalist, Backs Kerry on Vietnam
Sat Aug 21, 2004 12:32 PM ET
Printer Friendly | Email Article | Reprints | RSS

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By Carol Giacomo
PITTSBURGH (Reuters) - An American journalist who commanded a boat alongside John Kerry in Vietnam broke a 35-year silence on Saturday and defended the Democratic presidential candidate against Republican critics of his military service.

Weighing in on what has become the most bitterly divisive issue of the 2004 campaign for the White House, William Rood of the Chicago Tribune said the tales told by Kerry's detractors are untrue.

"There were three swift boats on the river that day in Vietnam more than 35 years ago -- three officers and 15 crew members. Only two of those officers remain to talk about what happened on February 28, 1969," he wrote in a story that appeared on the newspaper's Web site on Saturday.

"One is John Kerry, the Democratic presidential candidate who won a Silver Star for what happened on that date. I am the other."

Before now, wanting to put memories of war and killing behind him, Rood had refused all requests for interviews on the subject, including from his own newspaper. "But Kerry's critics, armed with stories I know to be untrue, have charged that the accounts of what happened were overblown." he wrote.

"The critics have taken pains to say they're not trying to cast doubts on the merit of what others did, but their version of events has splashed doubt on all of us.

"It's gotten harder and harder for those of us who were there to listen to accounts we know to be untrue, especially when they come from people who were not there," he added.

Kerry, a former Navy lieutenant, is a highly decorated Vietnam veteran, and his war service is essential to his ability to challenge President Bush on issues of national security and leadership in the face of the Iraq war and terrorism threats.

Increasingly, veterans opposed to Kerry and allied with Bush -- led by a group called Swift Boat Veterans for Truth -- have tried to undermine Kerry's service record and credibility and the justification for his medals.

In the face of a new CBS poll showing Kerry's support among veterans has slipped since the Democratic convention, the Massachusetts senator has launched an aggressive counterattack.

On Friday, Kerry accused the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth of collaborating with the Bush campaign and asked the Federal Election Commission to force the group to withdraw ads challenging his Vietnam service.

Bush spent the war in the United States serving in the Texas Air National Guard. Some Democrats have accused Bush of going absent without leave from the guard, citing gaps in his attendance record.

© Reuters 2004. All Rights Reserved.
0 Replies
 
Karzak
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 Aug, 2004 01:31 pm
Funny, I don't see Rood in this picture, I wonder what Kerry had to pay him to get this out of him?

http://www.swiftvets.com/images/brothers.jpg
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 Aug, 2004 02:06 pm
Karzak wrote:
Funny, I don't see Rood in this picture

The picture is of skippers who happened to be at a January 22, 1969 meeting. Could be any number of reasons he wasnt in it - for example, he might not have been in Vietnam yet; after all, the Silver Star episode he was in with Kerry was over a month later. Or he might have been stationed in another district. Or simply not have taken part in the meeting.

But I forget, it cant be something as peskily practical as all that, there must be a devious conspiracy ...

Karzak wrote:
I wonder what Kerry had to pay him to get this out of him?

Oh of course, damn, I'd forgotten that too! Of course! Whenever a Viet vet says that Kerry was a bad skipper, its out of a sheer, pure desire to tell the truth - not, for example, because of anger over Kerry's anti-war activities or because they were accused of great wrongdoing in Kerry's biography (like Hoffmann was). But when a fellow vet testifies to Kerry's heroism, he must have been ... paid off. That must be it.

What a very low opinion you must have of Vietnam vets, Karzak.

I mean, when I hear the inconsistencies in the SVFT allegations, I'm thinking, why are they contradicting what they said earlier? Why are they contradicting the records? Why are they recounting hearsay? And I'm thinking, well, they must be furious about Kerry's anti-war rhetorics, they must feel personally slighted by his accusations about atrocities, deeply hurt even; they must feel passionate about the harm that Kerry, in their eyes, did and will do.

But when you look at the vets who support Kerry, all you can imagine is, well, they musta been ... paid off. Cause vets, even those who've been silent for 35 years about it, you can just buy them off into telling and tweaking their personal testimonies of horror and war ... everybody knows that. Thats how it goes, in Karzak's world.

Must be some nasty place to live in ...
0 Replies
 
DontTreadOnMe
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 Aug, 2004 03:04 pm
Karzak wrote:
Hardly nuff said.

Lets try a little truth.

Kerry in nam lying to get out of nam so he can get to the states and lie about war crimes.

A liar is a liar, don't try to excuse kerry's lying, manipulative selfish nature by simplifying it. Kerry has no right for that comparison to actual war heros.



good. you are interested in truth. me too. so we don't have any misunderstanding, below is the webster's definition of truth:

truth. n.
1.
The quality or being true; as: - (a) Conformity to fact or reality; exact accordance with that which is, or has been; or shall be.

2.
That which is true or certain concerning any matter or subject, or generally on all subjects; real state of things; fact; verity; reality.

o.k., now we know what we're shooting for.

karzak. you say that kerry is a liar, selfish and manipulative.

have you ever personally met john kerry. yes or no?



0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 Aug, 2004 04:48 pm
The second man, aside from Bill Zaledonis who's already spoken up for Kerry, who actually was with Kerry the night he got his disputed first purple heart came out to speak up for him as well: Pat Runyon.

(He's not to be confused with the above-mentioned William Rood, who this weekend came out to speak up for Kerry over his Silver Star, being the only still-living swift boat officer that was there with him the day for which he received that one).

The SVFT say that Kerry arranged himself that first purple heart for a self-inflicted wound. Not true, according to Runyon in an interview by the Cleveland Plain Dealer Reporter:

Quote:
Soldier with Kerry in '68 says he earned first medal

Monday, August 16, 2004
Bill Sloat
Plain Dealer Reporter


Trotwood, Ohio - An Ohio factory worker who was with John Kerry on a dangerous night mission 36 years ago in Vietnam said he has no doubt Kerry was grazed in a firefight and deserves his first Purple Heart for a combat injury.

"We were on about a 14-foot boat with an outboard motor. We started out, taking a guess, around 10 p.m. We were sup posed to sneak up and check sampans," said Pat Runyon, a 58-year-old grandfather from Eaton, a small southwestern Ohio town near the Indiana border.

Runyon, an enlisted man who served on Swift boats in Vietnam, was not a regular member of Kerry's crew.

He said in an interview Sunday he somehow was chosen - "Let me tell you, I didn't volunteer" - to go out on the Dec. 2, 1968, mission, called a "skim op" in Navy slang.

The small, flat-bottomed boat - Runyon called it a "skimmer" - carried three men - Kerry in command, Bill Zaledonis on a machine gun and Runyon operating the outboard motor.

Once in place on the river, the three U.S. sailors paddled and drifted. Covered by the darkness, they hid to stop sampans, small vessels common in Southeast Asia. Guerillas used the sampans to smuggle weapons in the Mekong River Delta.

Runyon said Kerry was wounded after one vessel tried to avoid an inspection.

"Lt. Kerry said, 'I'm going to pop a flare, and when I do, I want that engine started,' " Runyon said. But the outboard would not crank. Meanwhile, the sampan's crew steered it to the riverbank, and people started running on the shore. Runyon said shooting broke out.

Somehow, Kerry's weapon stopped firing. Runyon thinks he ran out of ammunition. He said Kerry bent down to pick up another gun and got hit in the arm.

"It wasn't a serious wound," Runyon said, and Kerry was able to start shooting again. When the firefight was over, Runyon said Kerry told him all he felt was a "burning sensation."

Runyon said he remembers the incident clearly because it was the first time he had been in combat. "I hadn't seen any kind of action or anything," he said.

He said Kerry, Zaledonis and himself were the only men aboard. When he got the motor started, they took off. He said the outboard was in bad condition and did not have a handle to steer with. "I had to wrap my arms around it, like hugging it, to turn it," he recalled.

Runyon now works the second shift at a plant that makes auto parts in Eaton. He works in the shipping department.

He is supporting Democratic nominee Kerry for president, but said he is not a Democrat and has never been active in politics. He said he and Kerry met for the first time since that night in 1968 at a rally in Dayton this year.

Runyon said he introduced himself to the Massachusetts senator and Kerry did not remember him. "When I talked to him about that night, he remembered the incident but not my name. He just eased up once he knew I was who I said I was."

Runyon was at a Democratic picnic Sunday in Trotwood, a Dayton suburb, where he told the small gathering of party activists that an anti-Kerry veterans group was smearing the senator with false charges. "It's very poor to try and discredit him after [36] years," Runyon said. "That's very poor."

Runyon said that firefight with Kerry is his brush with fame.

"I saw a nice, quiet guy who knew he was in command and didn't flaunt it. He could make a decision, and he made the right one because we got out of there alive. That's all I can tell you."
0 Replies
 
JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 Aug, 2004 06:00 pm
So they put a bandaid on it and he got a Purple Heart. What a joke.
0 Replies
 
angie
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 Aug, 2004 06:02 pm
Somewhere above Swolf wrote: "W. is a centrist;"

In your dreams.

Unjustified pre-emptive invasions are not centrist.
Scoffing arrogantly at diplomacy is not centrist.
Repeated tax cuts for the extremely wealthy are not centrist.
Allowing radical Christian fundamentalists to dictate / influence social policy is not centrist.
Under-funding educational programs is not centrist.

Creating and feeding bitter divisions among the American people is not centrist.

Bush ran as a centrist, represented himself as a uniter not a divider, said he was not interested in nation building, etc. Fooled me, got my vote.

Now, however, I like many other Americans know better. He is an extremist. He has taken this country down an unproductive, dangerous path internationally, and down hurtful, divisive paths domestically.

He has to go.
0 Replies
 
squinney
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 Aug, 2004 06:03 pm
JustWonders wrote:


If the actual record matches what he's been bragging about, then I'll eat my keyboard and say no more.

The only thing I'm bitter about is being kept in the dark and left to wonder what it is in those records that he wants kept quiet.



I won't make you eat your keyboard! Kerry this week released his records and this is what was found: http://www.realcities.com/mld/krwashington/9455159.htm


Military records support Kerry's account of Vietnam service


"...Kerry released a stack of his military records - including after-action reports, citations for his medals, boat battle damage reports and his officer efficiency reports. These records - and the military records of at least one of his accusers - cast serious doubt on some of the more inflammatory charges raised by the group.

It didn't help the cause of the Swift Boat Veterans group that some of them, including their leader, retired Rear Adm. Roy Hoffman, were on the record praising Kerry for his service in Vietnam.

Kerry's commanding officer in Vietnam, George Elliott, said in an attack ad: "John Kerry has not been honest about what happened in Vietnam."

But during the Vietnam War, Elliott recommended Kerry for the Silver and Bronze Star medals for valor in combat and gave him the highest possible praise in his officer efficiency reports.

"In a combat environment often requiring independent, decisive action, LTjg Kerry was unsurpassed," Elliott wrote in 1969. He went on to rate Kerry as "calm, professional and highly courageous in the face of enemy fire."

Elliott added: "(Kerry) emerges as the acknowledged leader in his peer group." In 16 categories on Kerry's officer efficiency report, ranging from professional knowledge to moral courage to military bearing to reliability, Elliott gave Kerry the highest possible rating - "is not exceeded" - in 11 categories, and the second highest, "one of the top 10" in five other categories.

Elliott in 1996 supported Kerry in his re-election campaign for the Senate and during an appearance in Boston declared that Kerry had earned the Silver Star "for an act of courage."

Another critic, Larry Thurlow, a fellow Swift boat commander in the Mekong Delta in 1969, disputed Kerry's claim that his boat and others in the five-boat patrol came under enemy fire during a March 13, 1969, mission that earned Kerry a Bronze Star.

Thurlow said that although one of the Swift boats was disabled by a mine explosion, there was no enemy fire from shore, as Kerry and others testified, and that Kerry's account was "a total fabrication." Thurlow said in an affidavit: "I never heard a shot."

"...Thurlow said he had lost his medal citation for that incident over two decades ago and stood by his account that there was no enemy fire at the time.

His account was further called into question by a battle damage assessment report on another Swift boat, PCF-51, involved in the March 13 action. The report listed three .30-caliber bullet holes in the superstructure of the 50-foot patrol boat.

The Swift boat veterans also have cast doubt on Kerry's account that a second mine explosion damaged his boat, PCF-94, and blew an Army Special Forces officer, Jim Rassmann, overboard. Kerry's Bronze Star was awarded for his rescue of Rassmann, who credited Kerry with saving his life.

Among the records was a battle damage report filed the following day, March 14, which stated that PCF-94 had three windows blown out, radios and radar inoperable, the boat's auxiliary generator inoperable, screws curled and chipped, aft helm steerage control not working. The boat was judged incapable of executing patrols without repairs."


Now, can we get back to the important stuff, like a war in Iraq, horrible economy, tax cuts for the rich, HUGE deficit that is reason used for cutting domestic funding for little things like veterans?
0 Replies
 
Brand X
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 Aug, 2004 06:03 pm
I wonder if Rood knows Kerry's silver star award was signed and possibly 'written' in the 80's by then secretary of the navy John Lehmen.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 Aug, 2004 06:22 pm
JustWonders wrote:
So they put a bandaid on it and he got a Purple Heart. What a joke.

I think you're missing the point. Yeah, a purple heart can be given for any wound, the official criteria do not require it to be specifically serious. However, the same criteria do require the wound to be the "result of an act of [the] enemy". The SVFT's claim that Kerry's wound was self-inflicted was thus a claim that his purple heart was fraudulent. That, as it turns out, is a lie.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 Aug, 2004 06:32 pm
Brand X wrote:
I wonder if Rood knows Kerry's silver star award was signed and possibly 'written' in the 80's by then secretary of the navy John Lehmen.

That's strange ... because Foxfyre in another of these threads posted the text of the actual citation for that Silver Star, and it was signed by

"E.R. ZUMWALT, Jr.,
Vice Admiral, U. S. Navy,
Commander U. S. Naval Forces, Vietnam"

So you might want to doublecheck that assertion again, X.

Interestingly, Zumwalt was one of Kerry's present detractors' father. He actually defended Kerry back when the issue came up in his race against Weld, too, but now alas is no longer among the living ...

It's a good read though, this citation for Kerry's Silver Star:

Vice-Admiral Zumwalt, in John Kerry's actual Silver Star citation wrote:
As a result of this operation, ten Viet Cong were killed and one wounded with no friendly casualties. In addition, numerous sampans, structures and bunkers were destroyed as well as confiscation of substantial quantities of combat essential supplies. Lieutenant (junior grade) KERRY's devotion to duty, courage under fire, outstanding leadership, and exemplary professionalism directly contributed to the success of this operation and were in keeping with the highest traditions of the Unites States Naval Service."
0 Replies
 
swolf
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 Aug, 2004 07:01 pm
angie wrote:
Somewhere above Swolf wrote: "W. is a centrist;"

In your dreams.

Unjustified pre-emptive invasions are not centrist.
Scoffing arrogantly at diplomacy is not centrist.
Repeated tax cuts for the extremely wealthy are not centrist.
Allowing radical Christian fundamentalists to dictate / influence social policy is not centrist.
Under-funding educational programs is not centrist.

Creating and feeding bitter divisions among the American people is not centrist.


Let's take those one at a time.

1. Poisoning the US senate office building with anthrax is basically an act of war; the invasion of Iraq was fully justified.
2. Scoffing at clowns like Jake Shellac who take money from Saddam Hussein while the people who that money was meant to help starve, or at Hans Schlixx whose flunkies were taking money from Saddam Hussein, is fully justified.
3. At present, only the wealthy and people considerably above median income are paying any taxes. If you intend to bolster the economy by lowering tax rates which is known to work since Kennedy and Reagan, then you can only give the money back to its rightful owners.
4. I'd be willing to settle for plebescite voting on all social issues, including right2life(TM), affirmative action, 55-mph speed limits, etc. etc. Would you settle for that?
5. W. has presided over huge increases in spending for government schools despite the proven harm which they do; that is one of the more major things which real conservatives are pissed off over. A real conservative would have abolished the dept of education the day he took office. For my own taste, I've seen too many situations in which goverment schools are failing despite spending $8k -$11K/child while Christian schools next door to them do perfectly good jobs educating kids for a third to half that. I'd just as soon get the government out of education altogether.

http://honested.com/


I mean, other than all of that, what else do you find sufficiently objectionable about George W. Bush that you'd want to replace him with a leftwing whacko who also is a pathalogical liar?
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 Aug, 2004 11:48 pm
swolf wrote
Quote:
A real conservative would have abolished the dept of education the day he took office.


Quote:
goverment schools are failing despite spending $8k -$11K/child while Christian schools next door to them do perfectly good jobs educating kids for a third to half that.


Quote:
what else do you find sufficiently objectionable about George W. Bush that you'd want to replace him with a leftwing whacko who also is a pathalogical liar?


Before pointing out the mote in John Kerry's eye,
Examine the Beam in thy own.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
swolf
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Aug, 2004 12:17 am
Cycloptichorn wrote:


Before pointing out the mote in John Kerry's eye,
Examine the Beam in thy own.

Cycloptichorn


Before trying to enlist the new testament to argue by analogy, look up the word "relevant" in your dictionary...
0 Replies
 
 

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