Unfit for Command

btw that last sentence seems more to me than opinion.

Quote:

So what is it about him that makes you so sure he is telling the truth about the other especially when all but one or two who were on the boat with him say he's making it up?

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PDiddie wrote:

Debunked.

Tools. Every last one of them, right down to our lovely little member here, who has spent all day on this forum finding and posting everything he can find to try to slime John Kerry.

IT AIN'T WORKING.

McG, you're going to leave work today not having given your employer a honest hour's worth of work, and you're going to be madder than you were before you logged in this morning, because the work you did do has been, to quote a certain Democrat, a miserable failure.

Have a nice weekend.

Debunked by PDiddie simply saying so. Rolling Eyes

How wonderful that we can all sleep better at night knowing that the word of PDiddie is so strong regardless of the fact that little to no evidence backs his statements up and that he has been shown over and over to be wrong.

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Hmm ... the pic you posted earlier identifies two of Kerry's swift boat fellow-skippers, Skip Barker and Ralph Dobson, who support him now.

Several news articles mention a third man, Jim Rassmann, campaigning for Kerry now - a man whose life John Kerry saved in 1969.

This Boston Globe article mentions a fourth man coming out on stage with Kerry, "Del Sandusky, a suburban Chicago man who captained one of Kerry's boats".

This article, meanwhile, also mentions Rassmann, "the Green Beret whom Mr. Kerry pulled from the water under enemy fire".

And it identifies yet further "Members of his Vietnam Swift boat crew" who "are giving prime-time speeches and speaking at countless off-camera functions" for Kerry:

"One, the Rev. David Alston of Columbia, S.C. , told the convention Monday night that Mr. Kerry was a man of courage and conviction who never lost his cool." [..]

"He's not aloof and standoffish," Jim Wasser of Kankakee, Ill., another former crewman on Mr. Kerry's boat, assured the delegates at the caucus. "He's a caring, compassionate, courageous, man's man."'

That makes ... I'm losing count here ... six vets already who fought with Kerry and are now actually out there campaigning for him.

Six men who will come out on stage and testify of Kerry's courage and valour in war. More perhaps - I found these googling just the ten minutes.

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McGentrix wrote:

Yeah, I know, who would want a president that's actually done something in the last 30 years, right?

McG, I know your smarter than this. My point was that we were discussing the 'Nam situation, so thats what I was talking about. Out of nowhere you bust out the "30 years" comment (well, more like when it was obvious complaints regarding 'Nam and Kerry fall short in support of Bush). If you want to focus on what he's done since then, make a thread about it. Otherwise this one is going to go all over the place.

Please tell me you were just busting my chops, because if I have to explain myself in this much detail everytime I address your comments, I'll just wait until I get home before dealing with it (and wind up way behind on a daily basis).

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Foxfyre wrote:

All the men on Kerry's boat credit him with saving their lives? Do you know where that might be verified Sagamore?

There's at least one: Jim Rassmann - see my post above. Also in that second article is former crewmate Del Sandusky "saying Mr. Kerry's decisiveness under fire "saved our lives."'

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JaO, Haven't we been discussing the 'Nam situation?

http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=30156 for other Kerry information regarding the last 30 years.

Perhaps we could also include Clinton's Vietnam service? Or we could just keep the discussion rolling along as it has been. In the future though, if you feel the need to keep explaining yourself, please feel free as the more detailed you get, the better understood you will be.

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nimh wrote:

Hmm ... the pic you posted earlier identifies two of Kerry's former swift boat fellow-soldiers, Skip Barker and Ralph Dobson, who support him now.

Several news articles mention a third, Jim Rassmann, campaigning for Kerry now - a man whose life John Kerry saved in 1969.

This Boston Globe article mentions a fourth man coming out on stage with Kerry, "Del Sandusky, a suburban Chicago man who captained one of Kerry's boats".

This article, meanwhile, also mentions Rassmann, "the Green Beret whom Mr. Kerry pulled from the water under enemy fire".

And it identifies yet further "Members of his Vietnam Swift boat crew" who "are giving prime-time speeches and speaking at countless off-camera functions" for Kerry:

"One, the Rev. David Alston of Columbia, S.C. , told the convention Monday night that Mr. Kerry was a man of courage and conviction who never lost his cool." [..]

"He's not aloof and standoffish," Jim Wasser of Kankakee, Ill., another former crewman on Mr. Kerry's boat, assured the delegates at the caucus. "He's a caring, compassionate, courageous, man's man."'

That makes ... I'm losing count here ... six vets already who fought with Kerry and are now actually out there campaigning for him.

Six men who will come out on stage and testify of Kerry's courage and valour in war. More perhaps - I found these googling just the ten minutes.

http://www.swiftvets.com/index.php?topic=SwiftPhoto

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How you righties can attack Kerry's Vietnam service is beyond me. He served--whether you call him a hero or not. Neither Bush nor Cheney did. Bush's Guard record is ambiguous at best, and Cheney employed every exemption he could find to dodge the draft.

What the hell does Clinton have to do with the argument here?

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But we are not talking about Bush or Cheney. We are talking about Kerry. He wants to bring his Vietnam service out, that means it needs to be examined. If you want to start (another) thread hating Bush, you should.

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McGentrix wrote:

http://www.swiftvets.com/index.php?topic=SwiftPhoto

McG - LOL! Thats your answer?

That was the link I was responding to.

The action group you're referencing says - as the photo graphically illustrates - that there's only two fellow crewmates who support Kerry. You already posted that here.

BUT ... a simple Google search finds you the full names of SIX fellow crewmates who are out there campaigning for him now.

You just ridiculed PD for claiming to "debunk" you without offering facts ... well, here's the facts. First name and last name of SIX former crewmates of Kerry's.

Now what, McG? Could it be that your RNC-supported action group is, gasp - wrong?

If you can show me that any of those six Vietnam vets whose names I just gave did NOT actually serve with Kerry - please, go ahead.

Otherwise we're gonna just have to assume here that there are indeed six men who fought with Kerry and now testify to his bravery. At least one of 'em whose life Kerry saved.

McG?

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McGentrix wrote:

Perhaps we could also include Clinton's Vietnam service?

McG, changing the topic already?

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Nimh writes:

Quote:

There's at least one: Jim Rassmann - see my post above. Also in that second article is former crewmate Del Sandusky "saying Mr. Kerry's decisiveness under fire "saved our lives."

Yes, I have conceded these two; however it is reported that both were initially opposed to Kerry and agreed to support him at the convention after some arm twisting. Apparently in the book to come out in September, at least 11 others who served on Kerry's boat are testifying that it just wasn't the way he's presenting it now. Some of the criticisms are reported to be pretty scathing. On the website mentioned earlier in this thread is a good deal more information, presumably by those who served with Kerry, disputing his version of the facts.

I'm in a wait and see mode on this one; however, the truth is not on Kerry's side so far as he has been tripped up in more than one lie related to his military service.

The reason it even matters is that he has put Vietnam at the very front of his qualifications to be president. He and others are making a very obvious attempt to sidestep and avoid discussing his years/participation in the Senate any more than they absolutely have to. Therefore, if his military experience in Vietnam is his sole qualification to be president, and he has fabricated some or most of it, that does become a significant issue in evaluating his credentials to be President of the United States.

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That's outstanding Nimh! Like someone else said, it shows that viet vets can be partisan. You give the names of those that support Kerry, I give the names of those that oppose him. Then, we compare notes to see who is more believable. I re-posted the link to the photo to demonstrate that the photo Kerry was using as a propaganda peice was not what it appeared to be.

People that served with Kerry and above Kerry feel that he is not fit to be commander in chief. Have you asked yourself why that may be? There must be something more to it than mere republicanism. Check your facts.

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This story about just one of the men not included in that picture ...

Quote:

Repaying a Big Debt to Lt. Kerry
Home in Oregon

Jim Rassmann in 1969.

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Foxfyre wrote:

As the book isn't out yet, all is pretty much hearsay at this point. But apparently at least 11 of Kerry's crewmates who were on the boat with him are on the record as saying he isn't telling it like it was. Apparently two crewmates initially opposed him but, after some armtwisting from the campaign, have since agreed to stand with him in the campaign.

Perhaps the statement above was because you misread the quote from McG.

McGentrix wrote:

This photograph of John Kerry and 19 other Coastal Division 11 Swift boat officers was taken at Ton Sun Nuht Air Base on January 22, 1969, immediately following a meeting with General Abrams and Admiral Zumwalt.
The Kerry campaign featured the photograph in an advertisement released in May titled Lifetime. Swift Boat Veterans for Truth contacted surviving members of this group to find out how many actually support John Kerry, and discovered that of 19 Swift boat skippers pictured other than Kerry, 11 consider him unfit, 4 are neutral, two have died, and 2 are working with the Kerry campaign. Four other officers were not present for the photo session; all oppose Kerry.

These were skippers of other swift boats, not members of crew that served on the same boat with Kerry.

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Foxfyre wrote:

On the website mentioned earlier in this thread is a good deal more information, presumably by those who served with Kerry, disputing his version of the facts.

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The above account is from a March 2004 article - so way before the Convention or any "arm twisting" that Foxfyre asserts took place during its preparation ...

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McGentrix wrote:

That's outstanding Nimh! Like someone else said, it shows that viet vets can be partisan.

Yeah - that was me.

McGentrix wrote:

You give the names of those that support Kerry, I give the names of those that oppose him.

Fine. So I assume you won't be repeating your assertion that "his compatriots feel that based on his service in Vietnam he is unfit for command", then - what, considering that a significant number of them have recounted at length that they dont?

McGentrix wrote:

People that served with Kerry and above Kerry feel that he is not fit to be commander in chief. Have you asked yourself why that may be? There must be something more to it than mere republicanism. Check your facts.

People that served with Kerry and above Kerry feel that he is exceedingly fit to be commander in chief. Have you asked yourself why that may be? There must be something more to it than mere Democratic-ness. Check your facts.

Like I said above - apparently, there are fellow vets out there who claim he was no good a soldier; and there are fellow vets out there who testify of how he fought, risked his life, saved fellow men and led.

Lets just assume then that, out under fire, he did things wrong and he did things right - and now, 30 years later, fellow vets highlight one or the other depending on their partisan loyalties.

Now how does this compare with a man who did not volunteer to fight in the war America was then fighting - who did not want to risk his life for his country - who has noone to recount the valour and courage he showed?

Kerry risked his life and saved a life. How many of us did? It alone does not make him qualified for the Presidency - but it sure as hell says something notable about his character and courage.

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Nimh writes:

Quote:

The above account is from a March 2004 article - so way before the Convention or any "arm twisting" that Foxfyre asserts took place during its preparation ...

I guess I don't get your drift. What does one have to do with the other?

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Foxfyre wrote:

I guess I don't get your drift. What does one have to do with the other?

Re: Rasmann, you wrote that you "conceded" his story of how Kerry saved his life - but conditionalised it by claiming the guy had "initially opposed" Kerry and had only "agreed to support him at the convention after some arm twisting".

But the article, written way back in March, recounts how Rassmann actually told his story the first time "when the two men reunited in Des Moines, just two days before the Iowa primary" - and how "since then, Rassmann [..] has volunteered on the campaign trail for Kerry, with brief visits home to his wife, Julie, and their four-acre homestead here on the Oregon coast."

So when you claim that he "initially opposed Kerry", you mean, like - before the primaries, back when John was just a long shot? Or that it needed "some arm-twisting" to get him to support the guy he'd been volunteering his time for since February?

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