Are We Ready For a Woman President? Really?

@glitterbag,

Quote:

I think the thing I believe is most maddening is any fat guy dressed like a shlub thinks he's entitled to be offended and can comment on how sub par some women appear. No one ever seems to call out the person making the unflattering, unfair comments.

Hey! I dont pick on you so quit picking on me.

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@maxdancona,

But to give her credit she worked for it more so than most of the republican candidates.

1 Reply

@RABEL222,

Quote:

No one ever seems to call out the person making the unflattering, unfair comments.

It happens all the time these days, people have become very bossy, always trying to run other peoples lives. And people have no sense of humor anymore either.

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@ossobuco,

By now, my error has been uncovered. What I meant was that the Democratic convention is in July. The first debates slated for Dems are Octobner 13th in Nevada.

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@RABEL222,

RABEL222 wrote:

Quote:
I think the thing I believe is most maddening is any fat guy dressed like a shlub thinks he's entitled to be offended and can comment on how sub par some women appear. No one ever seems to call out the person making the unflattering, unfair comments.

Hey! I dont pick on you so quit picking on me.

Oh Rabel. you know I can't mention your name without screaming Hubba Hubba

1 Reply

@RABEL222,

RABEL222 wrote:

But to give her credit she "worked for it more" (TM) so than most of the republican candidates.

That's good... "worked for it more" is a way of saying that she is entitled to it that actually sounds good. (Although it doesn't make any sense, it is hard to see how she has worked any harder than the Marco Rubio or Carly Fiorina).

It does show that Hillary's well-connected, pricey PR machine is worth every penny.

1 Reply

@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

engineer wrote:

Interesting. So if one third of the population are independents and she automatically loses 11% of that, she is down 3.4% or so.

With that logic... against one of the Hispanic candidates, she is up (i.e. advantaged) by about 2%. Against Bernie Sanders she has what... about a 45% advantage?

Hillary is privileged.

Yes, Clinton is clearly advantaged against Sanders because of his declared Socialism. Several people have brought up that as a Sanders slam - can't win the general election. I'm not so sure about the Hispanic one. The Hispanic candidates don't really look or act Hispanic so will the public see them that way? As a white male of Hispanic decent, I doubt it, but yes, I think if running against a Hispanic candidate, Clinton would be advantaged. Of course in reality, she will likely be running against white males and while people are willing to vote for a woman, that doesn't mean she won't be subjected to all the stuff we've been discussing.

1 Reply

@engineer,

Clinton is also advantaged over Sanders because he is Jewish.

I also have seen no evidence that Hillary Clinton is being "subjected" to anything significant that male candidates don't also face. People make fun of Donald Trump's hair and Chris Christie's weight and John Boehner's skin color and no one cries sexism.

The biggest complaint I have seen is the fact that she is facing tough questions in front of a Congressional committee run by the opposite party... as if men haven't ever had to face that.

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@maxdancona,

How can you possibly be so unimaginative?????? Do you honestly think that Boehner's fake tan makes him a target for sexist remarks? This line of thinking is so illogical, that's akin to rape allegations against Bill Cosby characterized as racist. I'm really confused, do you actually believe this or are you being intentionally dense. You honestly have me stumped. What's going on? Do you think you get tarred because some people make ridiculous assumptions based on gender or race??? Trust me, you are not responsible for stupid remarks that other men make, I refuse to take on guilt because some women are jerks. Men and women are not Sport Teams, or secret societies.

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@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

I also have seen no evidence that Hillary Clinton is being "subjected" to anything significant that male candidates don't also face.

On the one hand, you have said that you know that some men would be against a woman just because she's a woman. On the other hand, when we say some men would be against Hillary Clinton because she's a woman, you say it doesn't apply with her. That doesn't make any sense.

Some men would be against voting for any woman,
Hillary Clinton is a woman,
therefore some men would be against voting for her because she's a woman.

Why is this difficult for you?

1 Reply

@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

Obviously there are some people who will not vote for her because she is a woman. There are other people who will vote for her because she is a woman. These people cancel each other out if they are equal in numbers. I suspect that with the understandable desire to have the first woman president, this is a net positive for Hillary Clinton (but who knows).

With the number of people who love Sarah Palin and the number of people who support Carly Fiorina (or would vote Republican in any case) added to the number of people who would vote for Hillary Clinton (which includes me if I have to)...

I suspect the number of Americans who would never vote for any woman is pretty low.

I went back and read this response of yours. I understand what you're saying. I think it's flawed logic and twisted reasoning, but I understand what you're saying and I accept that this is how you think about the subject.

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@snood,

I think more to the point, this thread isn't just about Clinton but about the idea of women in general and the Presidency. It is pretty clear (at least to me) that women in the public eye are held to standards of appearance and demeanor that men are not. They are routinely dismissed, their opinions discounted and criticized using terms like shrill and nag (see previous post). Regardless of whether someone would theoretically vote for them, this represents a higher entry barrier into politics than men face.

I really doubt that many people would have a problem with a woman President. I think the question is more about whether how we discuss politics in this country is equally conducive to a woman running as it is to a man. I think it is not based on how the media treats candidates, how the Internet treats candidates and the body of stereotypes about gender that most of us have ingrained. I can see those who think Clinton is not the best person to be the first serious woman candidate for President. The question should be why aren't all the other great candidates stepping up.

1 Reply

@glitterbag,

I am not being illogical, nor am I trying to be imaginative. I am looking for facts. I claim that Hillary is not being subjected to more attacks, nor significantly different attacks, than any other candidate.

This is a factual question. If you would like to dispute this then please tell me what attacks you think Clinton is facing that no male candidate has faced. Be specific.

My points about Boehner's tan and Trump's hair were examples that male candidates do take shots for their appearance (the attacks on Boehner are particularly mean and petty).

If you think Hillary is being "subjected" to anything more than what every top tier candidate faces, please give me concrete examples? I am not looking for imagination. I am asking for facts.

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@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

I am not being illogical, nor am I trying to be imaginative. I am looking for facts. I claim that Hillary is not being subjected to more attacks, nor significantly different attacks, than any other candidate.

This is a factual question. If you would like to dispute this then please tell me what attacks you think Clinton is facing that no male candidate has faced. Be specific.

My points about Boehner's tan and Trump's hair were examples that male candidates do take shots for their appearance (the attacks on Boehner are particularly mean and petty).

If you think Hillary is being "subjected" to anything more than what every top tier candidate faces, please give me concrete examples?

So you think the opposition has been setting up congressional "investigation" commissions intended primarily to hurt the candidate's chances...FOR ALL THE CANDIDATES...not just Hillary?

Hummm.

I didn't know that.

1 Reply

@engineer,

I mostly agree with you here Engineer. I would like to make a distinction.

I completely agree that society discourages women from reaching the point where they can run for president. There are social structures and perceptions that make it difficult for very talented women to reach the level of experience and power to launch a serious campaign. It is legitimate to point out that there should be more qualified female candidates.

That does not mean that Hillary Clinton, who has the connections, wealth, family name, power and education to launch a campaign is disadvantaged by anything. Many women are victims of gender stereotypes and are disadvantaged by social attitudes and institutions.

Hillary Clinton, one of the most politically connected and privileged human beings on the planet is not one of them.

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

So you think the opposition has been setting up congressional "investigation" commissions intended primarily to hurt the candidate's chances...FOR ALL THE CANDIDATES...not just Hillary?

Do you really think that the Republicans would not have dragged a male member of the Obama administration in front of the same congressional committee for the same reason?

Republicans are going after a Democratic member of the Obama administration. Her gender is irrelevant.

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@maxdancona,

Hows's this for concrete, apparently you missed it the first time I mentioned it. Novelty catalogues with a nutcracker shaped and painted in the likeness of Hillary Clinton complete with blue pants suit. I think the message is "Hillary is a ball buster", but being a mere women I must look to you for clarification. Will you tell me that being referred to as a ball buster is just a joke? What do you think about the 'humorous' toilet paper roll with Hillary's face on the squares? Joshing??? Me, I wouldn't buy toilet paper with Trump image on it, but not because I hold him in high regard, but because items like that scream "I'm an intolerant asshole with immaturity issues" and it's incredibly and unnecessarily disrespectful and mean spirited. If I saw such an item in a friends house, I would rethink my opinion of them.

I actually do understand why you assume your points are logical, but misogynistic attitudes can't be examined like a legal issue or win/lose like a game of tennis. You and I are not going to have a marathon point and counterpoint debate regarding the treatment of Hillary Clinton. I'm not interested in campaigning for Hillary with you, I'm assuming you're a grown man, and I've already raised my children into manhood, don't want to mother anyone I'm not related to. And frankly, I was paid quite well to manage and mentor a diverse work force, but I'm not even getting psychic income tutoring you. To put it another way, your idea of debate is akin to banging my head on the floor. It's painful and I can no longer be persuaded to engage with you.

1 Reply

@glitterbag,

Glitterbag, apparently I don't get the same novelty catalogues that you get, but a quick check shows that they do the same thing to male political figures. Hillary is not getting anything more then what any top candidate, male or female gets.

http://i.ytimg.com/vi/YIROk2aUr50/hqdefault.jpg

This has nothing to do with male or female... it has to do with being a polarizing political figure. Most people just ignore it.

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@maxdancona,

Huh, maybe some of us pick up on social cues, while guys like you don't have a clue. I think I'm giving you a time out, Eddie Haskel.

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@maxdancona,

Quote:

This has nothing to do with male or female... it has to do with being a polarizing political figure. Most people just ignore it.

It is amusing to watch Hillary trying to wear the female victim label when she is one of the most powerful members of the elite, and when she pursued it by trying to be one of the guys, trying to out masculine all the other guys in the room.

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Are We Ready For a Woman President? Really?

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