When will Hillary Clinton give up her candidacy ?

@georgeob1,

Quote georgeob1:

Quote:

In short you have no response at all.

Liar. I just gave you a response, which is that you can raise the income at which Social Security is deducted. In addition, we can look forward to GDP going up in the coming years, as new industries take off.

As for your mealy-mouthed "response" that since some Medicare rules apply only to those making a quarter of a million dollars a year or more, so that Medicare already qualifies as a "means-tested" system-that rule applies only to a small percentage of recipients. In no shape, size or form does it make Medicare a "means-tested" system for the overwhelming majority of Americans. In fact, that odd rule was put there by Republicans solely for the purpose of adding meaningless "means-tested" rules so that the GOP can claim that since Medicare is already "means-tested", the Republicans can pull their planned knife-in-the-back to American workers and announce that Medicare has become a "means-tested" welfare system for all or most of its recipients. After that, it will be only a matter of time when the former Medicare, (now "means-tested" welfare), system gets combined with the other "means-tested" welfare system for the poor, and the screwing of the American worker will be complete. Much to the satisfaction of the conservatives.

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@Blickers,

I am not a liar, but It appears that you are. You defended Medicare and Social security " as we know them now" and then go on to list the many changes you would make in them, including adding a heavier share on paying for it on those with greater income. Odd that you don't see that as a something similar to means testing of benefits in that it too significantly alters the ratio of contributions to benefits received based on relative income, with more or less the same result..

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@georgeob1,

Now you're just dodging by making meaningless statements. Social Security is a program that a worker and his employer pays for during his working years and which pays him something like an extremely modest income when he turns 65 or older. Medicare pays 80% of your medical bills when you turn 65. In both cases, if you put aside some extra money for when you retire that doesn't affect your status under the program, in most cases.

It should be pointed out that the public totally accepts both programs as being for normal Americans, and saying, "I went down to Social Security to clear up a matter" carries no stigma, as welfare does.

What the Republicans are proposing is simply turning Medicare and Social Security into an entirely "means-tested" system, which is to say a welfare system for poor folks. Under Republicans, saying "I went down to Social Security to clear up a matter" would indeed carry a stigma, whereas today it does not since it presently is an insurance system that a hard-working individual is completely entitled to as they paid into it all those years. The conservatives are trying to hard to end that. Shame on them.

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@Blickers,

I have a different take on social security and medicare. As I've said elsewhere on a2k, my benefits thus far far exceeds what I paid into the system. For me, the benefits have been extremely good.
The problem facing social security and medicare is the aging of America; more seniors and less workers. With the increasing numbers of baby-boomers reaching retirement age, and growth of families are at its lowest in history, the numbers just doesn't add up to keep paying for these benefits at current rates.
Congress knows this, but is afraid to do anything.
We also have the issue of immigration. Simply put, we need more workers.

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@cicerone imposter,

My "take" in my post above was simply to define what is meant by Social Security or Medicare in something like their present form. George had tried various things to cloud the issue, such as saying that Medicare is a "means-tested" system when there is some rule that only applies to recipients who make over a quarter million dollars a year. He said this to try to justify plans for making Medicare and Social Security into "means-tested" welfare system where a large percentage of people who would presently qualify for benefits would be knocked off.

The means to take care of paying for this is a different question. Don't forget that we are recovering from 2008-9, where 11 Million Full Time jobs were eliminated. So the Social Security and Medicare system will not be in as good a shape as it will be as those lost Full Time jobs are replaced.

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@Blickers,

I think it's a county by county kind of recovery from 2008. However, according to our GDP, our economy continues to grow at 1.5 to 2%/year which is one of the highest in industrialized countries. China's growth is higher, but they have one-fifth the world population vs the US at 5%.
I know that here in Silicon Valley where we live, the high tech companies have been hiring. Apple is building a space ship office building at a cost of $5 billion not one mile from where we live. Home prices and rents are increasing too quickly in our area.

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@cicerone imposter,

Quote:

We also have the issue of immigration. Simply put, we need more workers.

I agree. However, we also need wage increase and more fair labor laws, we need unions back again. It seems a lot of companies like to keep people on temporary rather than full time to avoid the full benefits of full time workers. So while employment has improved, the quality of the employment has a long way to go.

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@Blickers,

You are merely repeating yourself ad nauseum. I'm not very interested in your perceptions of the "means test" you allege "Republicans" want to apply to Social Security and evidently Medicare as well. I merely pointed out that there have been profound changes in the demographic facts in this country since Social Security and (to a lesser extent) Medicare were enacted. Costs are rising far ahead of tax collectioms to pay for them, and some structural reforms are required to make them sustainable.

How that may be done has long been a very contentious political issue. However it is one we will surely have to face to avoid an eventual collapse of the system. I believe that, in view of the demographic changes delaying the age of eligibility may well be an appropriate part of the solution, however I have no desire to debate the issue with you.

The tax provisions I noted that significantly reduce social security benefits for employed people earning over $250K/year were enacted by Democrats in the Oamacare legislation with no help from Republicans at all. That too is a form of means tests for those benefits. Do you approve of that?

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@georgeob1,

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Anyway, I'm off tomorrow to a long weekend in a wonderful Redwood Grove by the Russian river, for some collectivist good times.

Several days back, I had actually been thinking of that little tree-hugging get-together, assuming you'd be there again. I predict it will be particularly...uh...interesting this year. You really should invite me one time. A hands-across-the-border thing.

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http://m.townhall.com/tipsheet/katiepavlich/2016/07/13/new-york-post-yep-lynch-and-clinton-struck-a-deal-on-that-plane-n2192337

Business as usual.

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http://m.truthdig.com/avbooth/item/is_the_clinton_foundation_the_greater_scandal_surrounding_hillary_20160714

Hillary's indomitable pursuit to legitimize corruption in office- done. Thanks "Democrat" sycophants! You've created a disgusting government.

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@blatham,

blatham wrote:

Quote:
Anyway, I'm off tomorrow to a long weekend in a wonderful Redwood Grove by the Russian river, for some collectivist good times.

Several days back, I had actually been thinking of that little tree-hugging get-together, assuming you'd be there again. I predict it will be particularly...uh...interesting this year. You really should invite me one time. A hands-across-the-border thing.

That would be interesting....

It's more about music, art, unpretentious fellowship, and good food & wine than politics... Moreover opinions there aren't very different from those in other places, though there is far less posturing and back biting than here.

Have a good weekend.

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http://media.cagle.com/89/2016/07/13/181961_600.jpg

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@georgeob1,

I don't know who thumbed down georgeob1's post, but I put it back up. We all have a difference of opinion be it politics or religion. I have these differences with my siblings.
Both sides have are supporters, and that's the reason we have a two party system in this country.
I'm neither democrat or republican, because I have too many disagreements with both parties. I'm registered as an Independent, and lean towards the candidate that best represents my interests.
That's all part and parcel of what we call a democracy.

1 Reply

@georgeob1,

Quote georgeob1:

Quote:

I am not a liar, but It appears that you are. You defended Medicare and Social security " as we know them now" and then go on to list the many changes you would make in them, including adding a heavier share on paying for it on those with greater income.

I said in several posts that some sort of means of financing must be found, George, but the conservatives are trying to change the benefits of the system radically after people have paid into them for quite some time. Specifically, they aim to gradually set in "means-testing" for receiving benefits at all, fairly high at first but then no doubt coming down gradually. This is not "fixing" Social Security and Medicare, this is gradually doing away with them, which suits conservatives just fine since they are philosophically opposed to both systems.

The rise in premiums for Part B Medicare for people for making over $250K does not change the benefit schedule, hence it does not change Medicare as we know it. "Medicare as we know it"means "Medicare benefits as we know it".

As far as your dismissal of "means-testing" as being the conservative position, I would point out that so far this election cycle, Jeb Bush, Rand Paul, Marco Rubio, Ted Cruz, Chris Christie, John Kasich, Lindsey Graham, Rick Santorum, and Scott Walker have allcome out in favor of the concept. Turning Social Security and Medicare into "means-tested" welfare systems is not the answer-but it certainly appears to be the answer Republicans want to use.

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@cicerone imposter,

We have the workers. We need more jobs which congress could create if they werent in the 1% pocket.

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@georgeob1,

Quote:

It's more about music, art, unpretentious fellowship, and good food & wine than politics... Moreover opinions there aren't very different from those in other places, though there is far less posturing and back biting than here.

Have a good weekend.

I'll try. I had to cut short my road trip through southern BC and Alberta (in my little BMW Z3 roadster which handled every road divinely) because an earlier injury to my right knee was seriously aggravated by that much driving. Back to the doctor tomorrow, goddammit.

Hope you have a great weekend too, sincerely.

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@cicerone imposter,

Quote:

I don't know who thumbed down georgeob1's post, but I put it back up. We all have a difference of opinion be it politics or religion. I have these differences with my siblings.

I've known george for a long time. He gets lots wrong (ex-military, catholic, Irish, and a Republican - that's like drawing a royal flush of wrongness) but he's a good guy.

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Cleveland, city of light, city of magic

Quote:

"If you’re worried about missing out by not being there in person, you might console yourself with the fact that there’s a reasonable chance that a powerful alien empire will decide to vaporize the entire Cleveland area with a death ray in order to forestall the threat this lunacy poses to the galaxy. While we hope no one actually gets killed, it’s a good bet that this is going to be the most fascinating and ghastly convention in modern times. In other words, it will be a perfect reflection of the man the Republican Party has chosen to nominate."

http://wapo.st/29HjNzj

1 Reply

@blatham,

Quote:

In other words, it will be a perfect reflection of the man the Republican Party has chosen to nominate.

The odd thing is, hardly any conservatives here who will admit to voting or supporting him. Guess those aliens voted for him.

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When will Hillary Clinton give up her candidacy ?

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